Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#151

Post by throw2016 » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 7:35 AM UTC

I think this forum has to recognize a lot of work being done in the valley especially Google and Facebook is ethically questionable and seeking to brush it under the carpet or 'normalize' it perpetuates a dissonance. For starters the whole mythology of liberal freedom loving nerds sits in stark contrast to the reality of actively developing and enabling authoritarian technologies.

The curious consequence of the willful ignorance on one's own actions is the continued posturing and stark dissonance in expecting ethical behavior from other segments of society. If you can't behave ethically you can't expect it from others.

That level of dissonance is untenable and ultimately every intelligent person has to realize not recognizing and confronting unethical behavior is a race to the bottom and will reflect in every aspect of life around you.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#152

Post by mpk » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 7:40 AM UTC

Fnoord wrote: post #146

majormajor wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked at an ad-serving company. Clients couldn't get our data out , it's behind the scenes to them. Business-wise, it would be undermining our own product to offer anyone's personal information. There are other companies that do this focusing just on the collection side, which sounds like what FB is buying - but for FB to protect their position they're going to try to keep lids on that. The companies that try t…

Starting a database with personal information on a large amount of personae. Without them knowing about it. Refusing to share the gathered information. All of this is legal in the US? In the EU???

The EU has restrictions on this kind of stuff - http://ec.europa.eu/justice/data-protection/data-collection/...

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#153

Post by frik » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 7:50 AM UTC

j2bax wrote: post #54

Is there anyone out there making a paid, zero advertising/data collecting social network? What if this service allowed you to buy access for 50 of your closest friends and family? I would think if it was executed properly and you provided a standard "I'm deleting Facebook and here is why, apply to join my paid for network group" post people would consider making the jump. I know there's a lot to Facebook and I wouldn…

Facebook will censor/shadow-ban such a "good bye" post. It won't show up at most of your friends news feed. You also cannot advertise a competiting social network. The same goes fr private messages to more than a few people. Even if you try to write a seperate message to everyone, if it contains the same link or a similar text body, most of your friends will never see te message you wrote. That's all automatic. And for photos, they have a semi-automatic review process in place, with an army of contracted FTEs working in low paid countries to scan photos (there was a news story about that recently). I wouldn't be surprised if their other properties like WhatsApp and Instagram are monitored and censored/shadow-ban in a similar fashion nowadays.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#154

Post by Razengan » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 7:54 AM UTC

allemagne wrote: post #132

ForrestN wrote: post #39

There must be many HNers who work at Facebook. Anyone willing to make a throwaway account and tell us how it feels from the inside for Facebook to be one the wrong side of so many ethical issues? It just seems like in so many dimensions they've been caught saying wrong things or appearing to outright lie, and I'm curious how developers who work for them think about aiding a company that seems to be so compromised at…

NSA recruiters came to a class I had in college. I imagine Facebook employees would have the same sort of party line drilled into them. Yes the NSA takes privacy very seriously. The NSA spies on everyone else but doesn't spy on Americans, period. Oh, well yeah of course we collect data from Americans but if we find out we are looking at an American's data we're supposed to throw it away immediately. Throw in a harmle…

> if we find out we are looking at an American's data we're —supposed— to throw it away.

Keyword emphasized, and anyway ahat safeguards are there to ensure that they won't turn against "undesirable" Americans at any point in the future?

Like how the American citizens of Japanese origin were more-or-less extra-judicially just herded into camps back around WWII, and the perceived "risk factor" of American Muslims right now.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#155

Post by icantdrive55 » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 7:57 AM UTC

ForrestN wrote: post #39

There must be many HNers who work at Facebook. Anyone willing to make a throwaway account and tell us how it feels from the inside for Facebook to be one the wrong side of so many ethical issues? It just seems like in so many dimensions they've been caught saying wrong things or appearing to outright lie, and I'm curious how developers who work for them think about aiding a company that seems to be so compromised at…

I have sadly found that 99.9% of people(excluding maybe the Amish, and some, very few religious groups) will do whatever their employer, industry dictates, as long as it's legal, even slightly legal.

I once walked out of Chiropractic School. I lost a lot of money. I walked out because of complete disbelief in the Subluxation, and the subsequent profession.

Besides my astonishment over the denial by the students, and staff; I was most bothered by, "Hay--it's legal? It might work, but the studies are underfunded?"

This was my over twenty years ago. When ever I encounter sonemeone, and there profession, I wonder what this guy(usually in a tie, with a degree) would do for the organization in order to make money for himself, and spawn.

99.9% of the time they go along with the crowd. Sure, after a few beers, they become pious ethical warriors, but they are scared sheep.

Psychologists have proved it over, and over again(Milgram experiment comes to mind), but everyone thinks they are different.

I have never found a completely ethical person. Ethics are the one trait we seem to be loosing year after year. And sure, every new generation thinks they are different, but really aren't.

My hope is ethics will be talked more about in companies, and society.

(If you're from a poor, unsupportive family don't "rock the boat"--you honestly can't afford it. I learned the hard way. Plus, it's usually the rich boys who need to take the ethical stand more often.)

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#156

Post by Taek » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 8:02 AM UTC

quadrangle wrote: post #118

I know this is too late to get noticed much, but here's the truth: This is a race-to-the-bottom. Everyone in this whole area has to compete with whoever is the scummiest exploiter unless they really go out of their way to sell their service with privacy and ethics as the top feature. So, some ethical niche services can exist, but meanwhile, everyone else is screwed, and network effects make any niche thing stay prett…

I agree that it's a race to the bottom but not that regulation is a way out. There are too many services employing too many engineers, and furthermore governments benefit from this massive surveillance. They pay for the results, and the direction in government today is towards less privacy, not more.

And if you do win the regulation battle, you only win it for the current generation of tech. There will be more, and every decade the power of information collection will get stronger.

I believe that we need to embrace the loss of privacy and ask ourselves how to transition to a world where one's personal history and daily life is freely available to the general public. I give it 30 years until we get there. The tech is certainly not going away.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#157

Post by hueving » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 8:05 AM UTC

wheelerwj wrote: post #128

harry8 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet they underpay and also use their lobbying muscle/money to change laws to keep engineering pay down. Note the sheer desperation to keep the pay secret so it doesn't turn into an auction for scarce resources for engineering talent the way it does with lawyers, bankers, MBA's. If you're in it fore the money don't work for facebrick.

payment is relative. to the rest ofnthe world, all of the SV engineers looks grossly over paid.

> to the rest ofnthe world, all of the SV engineers looks grossly over paid.

Only to people who don't understand economics. I know the salaries in NYC are high as well, but I understand the cost of living that drives that.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#158

Post by closeparen » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 8:06 AM UTC

api wrote: post #94

closeparen wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to forget on HN, but there is far from universal buy-in for the notion that having or collecting data on people is unethical. Some may even consider it noble to optimize and perfect the world and its institutions (including commerce, via efficient advertising) using large-scale personal data. The impulse to make something better by applying a database engine that you might feel for business processes, can j…

Surveillance could indeed have many beneficial uses in a benevolent, voluntarist sort of society. Unfortunately we don't live there. The world is still largely run by warlords, narcissists, and sociopaths.

The "standard" counterargument here is that warlords, narcissists, and sociopaths can only operate effectively in private, and their capabilities would be severely limited in a world where secrets are hard to keep.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#159

Post by morgante » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 8:27 AM UTC

ForrestN wrote: post #39

There must be many HNers who work at Facebook. Anyone willing to make a throwaway account and tell us how it feels from the inside for Facebook to be one the wrong side of so many ethical issues? It just seems like in so many dimensions they've been caught saying wrong things or appearing to outright lie, and I'm curious how developers who work for them think about aiding a company that seems to be so compromised at…

Not everyone agrees with your ethics.

I have no financial stake in Facebook (don't work there), but really don't see many moral problems with what it does. And I think their mission of connecting the world in a single easily discoverable network is absolutely world-changing and noteworthy. It's changed my world for sure.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#160

Post by rimantas » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 8:29 AM UTC

pipio21 wrote: post #57

ForrestN wrote: post #39

There must be many HNers who work at Facebook. Anyone willing to make a throwaway account and tell us how it feels from the inside for Facebook to be one the wrong side of so many ethical issues? It just seems like in so many dimensions they've been caught saying wrong things or appearing to outright lie, and I'm curious how developers who work for them think about aiding a company that seems to be so compromised at…

It is not wrong when you benefit from it. This is a human trait, people do not see the wrong on the things you benefit from. For example, did you ate beef or fish lately? When was the last time you thought about the animals that were killed in order for you to eat them. Have you seen the sacrifice of an animal needed for eating it. In Mongolia or Middle East nomads will sacrifice the animal in front of you before eat…

  > When was the last time you thought about the animals
  > that were killed in order for you to eat them.

I don't think of them often but I grew on the farm so I could witness (and sometimes particpate) in the whole process. I see nothing wrong with that. I could even see more wrong in the attitude where people become veg(etari)ans for "ethical reasons". That's some fucked-up ethics, if you ask me.