Not Working for Us (Preparing to Discuss Jacob Applebaum at CCC)
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Re: Not Working for Us (Preparing to Discuss Jacob Applebaum at CCC)
#2Everybody deserves justice. I don't think Medium posts and a lynch mob are the way this is achieved. Get the police involved when a crime is committed. Enough with the hearsay character assassinations. This time, the author even admits that he's conflicted and that his memory isn't completely reliable. So as somebody from the "out-group" it's hard to take it as seriously as it probably should be taken :(
Edit: Instead of spawning a discussion, I should have guessed this would be downvoted immediately for not representing SJW values. Sorry to disappoint.
Re: Not Working for Us (Preparing to Discuss Jacob Applebaum at CCC)
#3Everybody deserves justice. I don't think Medium posts and a lynch mob are the way this is achieved. Get the police involved when a crime is committed. Enough with the hearsay character assassinations. This time, the author even admits that he's conflicted and that his memory isn't completely reliable. So as somebody from the "out-group" it's hard to take it as seriously as it probably should be taken :( Edit: Instea…
There's a bit of a thin-skinned-ness to editing your own post to complain about downvoting. (I get downvoted sometimes. Honestly, who the fuck cares?)
To answer the substantive point you make, I think the hyperbole of "lynch mob" is a bit overused in these circumstances. Historically, lynch mobs hung (often innocent) victims from trees. Writing Medium posts isn't exactly equivalent.
So what exactly is your complaint? That Jacob wasn't (also) prosecuted? I share that complaint, but prosecutions for acquaintance rape are fairly rare and fairly difficult, unfortunately.
Or is your complaint that Jacob is subject to public criticism in this regard? For that I have less sympathy; the American standards for defamation and libel--which require falsehood and intentional maliciousness--strike me as taking the right balance here. If you cannot (for whatever reason) be successfully prosecuted, you have a tough time making the case that accusers should not be allowed to air their accusations publicly. (What you can do--and what Jacob has done vigorously--is mount your own public counter-argument, and leave it to readers to decide who's telling the truth.)
For what it's worth, I agree with you that this essay, lacking much in the way of firsthand testimony, is not especially helpful, but everyone can air their own reaction however they desire, I guess.
Re: Not Working for Us (Preparing to Discuss Jacob Applebaum at CCC)
#4Everybody deserves justice. I don't think Medium posts and a lynch mob are the way this is achieved. Get the police involved when a crime is committed. Enough with the hearsay character assassinations. This time, the author even admits that he's conflicted and that his memory isn't completely reliable. So as somebody from the "out-group" it's hard to take it as seriously as it probably should be taken :( Edit: Instea…
> SJW values
What does this mean?
Re: Not Working for Us (Preparing to Discuss Jacob Applebaum at CCC)
#5Everybody deserves justice. I don't think Medium posts and a lynch mob are the way this is achieved. Get the police involved when a crime is committed. Enough with the hearsay character assassinations. This time, the author even admits that he's conflicted and that his memory isn't completely reliable. So as somebody from the "out-group" it's hard to take it as seriously as it probably should be taken :( Edit: Instea…
> SJW values What does this mean?
Uppity subalterns and fellow travelers.
Re: Not Working for Us (Preparing to Discuss Jacob Applebaum at CCC)
#6Everybody deserves justice. I don't think Medium posts and a lynch mob are the way this is achieved. Get the police involved when a crime is committed. Enough with the hearsay character assassinations. This time, the author even admits that he's conflicted and that his memory isn't completely reliable. So as somebody from the "out-group" it's hard to take it as seriously as it probably should be taken :( Edit: Instea…
> SJW values What does this mean?
SJW is most commonly used as a pejorative term these days, and it's anyone's guess what it's supposed to represent other than "people who aren't agreeing with me."
Re: Not Working for Us (Preparing to Discuss Jacob Applebaum at CCC)
#7Good article by Isaacson. I would add I think it would be good if the CCCers got some outside consultation, both from people in the sex abuse field, and at least one person who is an expert on sociopaths, since that is what it seems JA is.
I think it would also helpful would be helpful to learn communication skills like active listening and the ones in Marshall Rosenberg's book Nonviolent Communication.
Re: Not Working for Us (Preparing to Discuss Jacob Applebaum at CCC)
#8Everybody deserves justice. I don't think Medium posts and a lynch mob are the way this is achieved. Get the police involved when a crime is committed. Enough with the hearsay character assassinations. This time, the author even admits that he's conflicted and that his memory isn't completely reliable. So as somebody from the "out-group" it's hard to take it as seriously as it probably should be taken :( Edit: Instea…
This post itself may be closer to agreeing with you than not:
The reaction of our community’s “immune system” was notably severe in this case; rather than doing it this way next time, we need to develop more compassionate systems to deal with problems earlier.
Re: Not Working for Us (Preparing to Discuss Jacob Applebaum at CCC)
#9Everybody deserves justice. I don't think Medium posts and a lynch mob are the way this is achieved. Get the police involved when a crime is committed. Enough with the hearsay character assassinations. This time, the author even admits that he's conflicted and that his memory isn't completely reliable. So as somebody from the "out-group" it's hard to take it as seriously as it probably should be taken :( Edit: Instea…
I agree that the police should be involved when a crime is committed. The problem, according to Isaacson is that the whole CCC community has a set of social norms that have been preventing that. However, people seem to be realizing that, and are starting to work to change the norms. I am glad to hear that, and I think it is good he wrote about that since this problem is certainly found in many other groups.
There is something else. Yes, the police should be called when a crime occurs, but there are lots of sexual behaviors that are not strictly crimes but are still morally wrong. The main way to prevent crimes from happening in the first place is to have clear community norms against the lesser offences. Wouldn't you agree? And the only way that ever happens is through a whole lot of discussion within the community.
>Enough with the hearsay character assassinations. This time, the author even admits that he's conflicted and that his memory isn't completely reliable.
He said he personally witnessed many abusive episodes himself. And he spoke to many others who had personally been abused. That is not hearsay, which is when someone tells you something they claim someone else said. Instead it is exactly the sort of discussions that have to happen when a community is making a major change in its norms.
Re: Not Working for Us (Preparing to Discuss Jacob Applebaum at CCC)
#10Everybody deserves justice. I don't think Medium posts and a lynch mob are the way this is achieved. Get the police involved when a crime is committed. Enough with the hearsay character assassinations. This time, the author even admits that he's conflicted and that his memory isn't completely reliable. So as somebody from the "out-group" it's hard to take it as seriously as it probably should be taken :( Edit: Instea…
I agree that the police should be involved when a crime is committed. The problem, according to Isaacson is that the whole CCC community has a set of social norms that have been preventing that. However, people seem to be realizing that, and are starting to work to change the norms. I am glad to hear that, and I think it is good he wrote about that since this problem is certainly found in many other groups. There is…
> The problem, according to Isaacson is that the whole CCC community has a set of social norms that have been preventing that.
While I didn't read that out of the article clearly, I have heard it before, and it's definitely a danger of the self-reliance hacker ethos. This is a fair point, and one your other comment addresses nicely.
> The main way to prevent crimes from happening in the first place is to have clear community norms against the lesser offences. Wouldn't you agree?
Well, you can't protect everybody. If what he says it true, he let people know not to sleep with Applebaum, and they still decided to. I don't find this hard to believe, but such is life. (Male) murderers in prison get loads of (female) fan mail. So does the community need to police this, or let individuals decide for themselves with a reasonable amount of facts? I'm a pretty careful person and tend towards caution, but I get that not everybody is like me. But community "policing" isn't the right answer for free will IMO. This only holds as long as nobody was mislead I guess.
> He said he personally witnessed many abusive episodes himself. [...] Instead it is exactly the sort of discussions that have to happen when a community is making a major change in its norms.
Sure, but putting them in a Medium post is hardly reliable. Or at least, it's different and editorialised than if it were under oath or cross-examination. I'm not stupid enough to think the "truth" exists or that we could find it. But I am a bit weary of throwing it out there, into the public, outside of "the community". What is the general public to do with this information? Think Jacob Applebaum is a monster? Or ignore it? Is it factual? There's so many questions here that make it very hard to deal with the material properly, if that's even possible.