Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#61

Post by karllager » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 1:23 AM UTC

ForrestN wrote: post #39

There must be many HNers who work at Facebook. Anyone willing to make a throwaway account and tell us how it feels from the inside for Facebook to be one the wrong side of so many ethical issues? It just seems like in so many dimensions they've been caught saying wrong things or appearing to outright lie, and I'm curious how developers who work for them think about aiding a company that seems to be so compromised at…

An observation: I recently watched a presentation from a developer who works at a random adtech company. He was a nice, albeit naive guy. In order to explain the technical topic he gave a bit of context about the business. It was so creepy, you could feel the audience thinking - Oh-kay. He didn't even notice.

Now. I watched hundreds of technical presentations from Google and Facebook engineers. Did a presenter ever got into the details on how they track the user for what metric, and so on. Not a single freaking time.

Andrew Ng recently told in a presentation, that all data must be accessible in one place. Did he came across creepy? Not at all. He is such a professional person, that he can even weave in a remark about privacy just right beside the talk about the uber-data-warehouse.

That is professionalism. I expect Facebook to have a silent policy about talking about things developers and admins see on the inside.

Apart from this complex issue. Who inducts ethics for managers? Why do people come up with bad ideas (track all users all the time, or buying such data for that matter) in the first place? Hint: The problem is not developer ethics.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#62

Post by chipperyman573 » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 1:23 AM UTC

ljk wrote: post #21

bogomipz wrote: post #16

>"For instance, opting out of Oracle’s Datalogix, which provides about 350 types of data to Facebook according to our analysis, requires “sending a written request, along with a copy of government-issued identification” in postal mail to Oracle’s chief privacy officer." This is outrageous. Why is the onus on a user who never gave permission to a data broker in the first place? They deal in digitial domain when it com…

iirc it's the same for facebook: if they think you're using a fake name, you'll have to mail them your government-issued identification to get your account back.

You just have to upload it, not mail it in.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#63

Post by mahyarm » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 1:27 AM UTC

deepsun wrote: post #55

ForrestN wrote: post #39

There must be many HNers who work at Facebook. Anyone willing to make a throwaway account and tell us how it feels from the inside for Facebook to be one the wrong side of so many ethical issues? It just seems like in so many dimensions they've been caught saying wrong things or appearing to outright lie, and I'm curious how developers who work for them think about aiding a company that seems to be so compromised at…

I have a friend at Facebook. Yes, they do understand that some data they collect is pretty ... private. But since it's good for Facebook -- it's good for them. In all personal discussions they defend the company to the point that I started feeling like there is some mind-washing going on. Of course it's just a feeling, but my point is -- they don't think it is bad.

It's hard to work for any software bigco that doesn't have an ethics violation somewhere. Same as living in a country without an ethics violation attributable to it's govt. Google is probably the scariest one out there out of all of the bigcos because of how much data they have on the world, yet they cover themselves with a cutesy image.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#64

Post by nxc18 » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 1:34 AM UTC

ForrestN wrote: post #39

There must be many HNers who work at Facebook. Anyone willing to make a throwaway account and tell us how it feels from the inside for Facebook to be one the wrong side of so many ethical issues? It just seems like in so many dimensions they've been caught saying wrong things or appearing to outright lie, and I'm curious how developers who work for them think about aiding a company that seems to be so compromised at…

I don't see how this is being on the wrong side of an ethical issue. Perhaps it is (somehow, after years of this being in the news) shocking that that data is collected about your life, but Facebook isn't doing the collection. Anyone can buy that data and many organizations do.

Facebook hasn't actually done anything here that is harmful, not with the non-shocking data collection from third parties and not with the data you willingly give them by using their service.

Even the fake news situation, which is another supposed reason why Facebook is evil, is purely a result of the hubbub over having human editors. When the human news editors were around, the news links were interesting, of decent quality and unbiased.

Facebook really hasn't been on the wrong side of any moral or ethical debate, just the wrong side of public opinion (or at least the opinions of writers who need clicks/pageviews).

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#65

Post by ChuckMcM » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 1:37 AM UTC

deepsun wrote: post #55

ForrestN wrote: post #39

There must be many HNers who work at Facebook. Anyone willing to make a throwaway account and tell us how it feels from the inside for Facebook to be one the wrong side of so many ethical issues? It just seems like in so many dimensions they've been caught saying wrong things or appearing to outright lie, and I'm curious how developers who work for them think about aiding a company that seems to be so compromised at…

I have a friend at Facebook. Yes, they do understand that some data they collect is pretty ... private. But since it's good for Facebook -- it's good for them. In all personal discussions they defend the company to the point that I started feeling like there is some mind-washing going on. Of course it's just a feeling, but my point is -- they don't think it is bad.

There is no personal gain or advantage to dwelling on the bad things your company could be doing. So if you work at company X and company X does some bad things but you're working on something you consider not bad, you focus on what you're working on. Sure you'd do things differently if you ran the company but you don't, so you just ignore that stuff. Mental self defense at its finest.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#66

Post by linkregister » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 1:40 AM UTC

When I read this article, I was expecting to see a description of what they collect from users. But the real controversial and creepy part is what's available from the data brokers.

The fact Facebook is aggregating all this to make for better advertising options is discomforting, to be sure.

The most concerning aspect of the article is that these data brokers are able to correlate my purchases. It seems inevitable that insurance companies will take all of these individual data points into account: "We're sorry Mr. Register, because you buy McDonald's every week we'll have to raise your life insurance rates."

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#67

Post by cmdrfred » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 1:41 AM UTC

deepsun wrote: post #55

ForrestN wrote: post #39

There must be many HNers who work at Facebook. Anyone willing to make a throwaway account and tell us how it feels from the inside for Facebook to be one the wrong side of so many ethical issues? It just seems like in so many dimensions they've been caught saying wrong things or appearing to outright lie, and I'm curious how developers who work for them think about aiding a company that seems to be so compromised at…

I have a friend at Facebook. Yes, they do understand that some data they collect is pretty ... private. But since it's good for Facebook -- it's good for them. In all personal discussions they defend the company to the point that I started feeling like there is some mind-washing going on. Of course it's just a feeling, but my point is -- they don't think it is bad.

Such an odd impulse. I've known guys who sold heroin and meth on the small to medium scale, they don't defend the drug or their actions except to perhaps say "I'm trying to take care of my little girl". It might be a socioeconomic thing coming from a poor background nobody is really proud of what they do to make ends meet so nobody has to pretend to be.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#68

Post by karllager » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 1:44 AM UTC

nxc18 wrote: post #64

ForrestN wrote: post #39

There must be many HNers who work at Facebook. Anyone willing to make a throwaway account and tell us how it feels from the inside for Facebook to be one the wrong side of so many ethical issues? It just seems like in so many dimensions they've been caught saying wrong things or appearing to outright lie, and I'm curious how developers who work for them think about aiding a company that seems to be so compromised at…

I don't see how this is being on the wrong side of an ethical issue. Perhaps it is (somehow, after years of this being in the news) shocking that that data is collected about your life, but Facebook isn't doing the collection. Anyone can buy that data and many organizations do. Facebook hasn't actually done anything here that is harmful, not with the non-shocking data collection from third parties and not with the da…

> not with the data you willingly give them by using their service.

Imagine I am a producer of sugared water. Do I want you to delve into health issue associated with that? Not necessarily. As a owner of a site that lives from user interaction, do I want my users to go out without their phone and have fun without me? Well, do it, but only if you really must.

There is a conflict of interest here, but that's too disturbing to communicate. Period.

Most people don't have the time and money to check facts anyway, so let's just claim facebook is the internet (for example) - because, you know, without all this livestock, our investors get unhappy. Business as usual, I would say.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#69

Post by nxc18 » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 1:44 AM UTC

bogomipz wrote: post #16

>"For instance, opting out of Oracle’s Datalogix, which provides about 350 types of data to Facebook according to our analysis, requires “sending a written request, along with a copy of government-issued identification” in postal mail to Oracle’s chief privacy officer." This is outrageous. Why is the onus on a user who never gave permission to a data broker in the first place? They deal in digitial domain when it com…

It isn't your data. It is their data about you, which is a very important distinction.

Facebook and Oracle aren't the bad actors here, if you think there is a bad actor. The baddies are the people giving Oracle (and others) that data about you.

(And now I have to hang my head in shame for saying something that sounds like it is a defense of Oracle. They're baddies for many, many other reasons, just not this one)

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#70

Post by sixothree » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 1:50 AM UTC

linkregister wrote: post #66

When I read this article, I was expecting to see a description of what they collect from users. But the real controversial and creepy part is what's available from the data brokers. The fact Facebook is aggregating all this to make for better advertising options is discomforting, to be sure. The most concerning aspect of the article is that these data brokers are able to correlate my purchases. It seems inevitable th…

I'm curious if it could be possible to buy this data on one's self. Maybe someone could start a company that would allow you to find out this information.