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Economists versus the Economy

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71–80 of 115 posts

Re: Economists versus the Economy

#71
post #43

> Economists claim to make precise what is vague, and are convinced that economics is superior to all other disciplines, because the objectivity of money enables it to measure historical forces exactly, rather than approximately. Economist here. Maybe some economists make this very bold, presumptive claim. But I'll be honest, money very rarely enters into the paradigm; rather resource allocation and maximizing utilit…

How easy is it to get feedback? How quickly do you see results?

Re: Economists versus the Economy

#72
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your graph shows the same as the one from smallnamespace: 2003 was a good year to refinance because rates were at a bottom.

Krugman's bet - in his own words and using ISLM - was that interest rates would skyrocket because of deficit spending on the Iraq war in 2003. He paid extra to make this bet. Where on that graph did rates skyrocket exactly?

From the article: "And as that temptation becomes obvious, interest rates will soar. It won't happen right away. With the economy stalling and the stock market plunging, short-term rates are probably headed down, not up, in the next few months, and mortgage rates may not have hit bottom yet. But unless we slide into Japanese-style deflation, there are much higher interest rates in our future." (emphasis mine)

That's pretty much what happened:

http://www.gridgit.com/postpic/2011/09/us-inflation-rate-his...

Inflation doubled from 2002 onwards, then the housing bubble popped, causing inflation to fall. Thankfully not into a long-term deflationary spiral, though.

Re: Economists versus the Economy

#73
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>resource allocation and maximizing utility are the common approach. Utility maximisation has always struck me as a horrible way to do modelling. In most cases your results must depend heavily on the form of utility function you choose. And you always have to make a choice since utility functions are unobservable.

I guess the follow up question to this is: what superior alternative do you propose we use for evaluating competing government policies?

I don't think we should ditch "utility" entirely but rather the idea people are actors that try to rationally maximize utility.

One problem is of uncertainty (this was pointed out by Keynes) - people simply do not trade higher risk for higher profits, even if the mean value increases in the mathematical sense. Rather, they set a horizon of uncertainty.

The other big problem is that utility is ill-defined for an individual. We are competitive beings and value many things for reasons that are related to how other people value them. This cannot be modeled within the theory of rational choice. (It's also somewhat related to the fact that supply-demand is not that great model.)

In other words, we should augment the models to take the above issues (at least, IMHO those are the biggest problems but certainly not the only ones) into consideration.

Re: Economists versus the Economy

#74
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

tl;dr - the policymakers who made the decisions were not economists, they were politicians who ignored economists' advice. Namely, they refused to embrace fiscal measures (deficit spending, including through the self-triggering methods of the welfare state) and relied entirely on "confidence-building" measures and on the monetary tools available to central banks - which were, as economists' models predicted, ineffect…

If economists, collectively, had demonstrated a bit more prescience before 2008, they might have had a bit more credibility afterwards. Nor does it help that it seems you can find a distinguished economist on either side of any issue that matters.

No, economists agree that global carbon tax and free trade (by >85%) are good.

Re: Economists versus the Economy

#75
post #66
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact there is no alternative doesn't mean we should use something that we know barely works. This is exactly the problem with economism

That all sounds very clever and all, but there's still a rather important question being left unanswered here: on what basis should a government make decisions? Coin flips? Gut feelings? The phase of the moon? Let's say you're the King of the United States. One of your noblemen comes in to your palace and says 'Your majesty, I suggest we eliminate corporate taxation and replace the lost revenue with a tax on consumpt…

Coin flip sounds good to me. If you honestly don't know how to solve a problem, inventing a discipline for the express purpose of having an authority to point to sounds like the worst possible idea. It makes it much harder to change course if you can't merely say "oh, we should try tails instead due to xyz" because now you've got another institution fighting to justify its own survival.

Re: Economists versus the Economy

#76
post #66
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact there is no alternative doesn't mean we should use something that we know barely works. This is exactly the problem with economism

That all sounds very clever and all, but there's still a rather important question being left unanswered here: on what basis should a government make decisions? Coin flips? Gut feelings? The phase of the moon? Let's say you're the King of the United States. One of your noblemen comes in to your palace and says 'Your majesty, I suggest we eliminate corporate taxation and replace the lost revenue with a tax on consumpt…

Coin flips are actually okay when you don't know something: Create many small experiments instead of trying the "world formula" solution. Also, create an environment where responsibility and decision making authority is as low as possible, not as high as possible - meaning where both the data and the consequences can both be found together.

Oh and use "muddling through" more openly, because that's what life is about no matter how much data you collect. So don't pretend that there even IS an "optimal" answer, and/or that you know it and/or even that anyone can find it. Let's admit that we are all just trying things and that failure IS an option. So create systems that a) actually encourage and allow experimenting, and b) let those fail safely.

Re: Economists versus the Economy

#77

It's possible to graduate from an economics program without knowing what the IMF does, or how a bank works, or how trade agreements work, or what the major imports and exports from China are. That suggests to me that something has gone badly wrong with economics education.

From a community college, maybe. Try that on a research university and see how that goes for yourself. Principles are taught well, and with the proper background and insight.

Re: Economists versus the Economy

#78

There were plenty of economists that warned of the bubble well before it popped but they were routinely ridiculed and dismissed since explaining themselves took longer than a 15 second slot between questions on a news show.

Then they can take a short and make large sums.

Re: Economists versus the Economy

#79
> But no branch of human inquiry has cut itself off from the whole – and from the other social sciences – more than economics.

In Bratislava, the town I come from, there's Comenius University which has many faculties, one of them being Philosohical Faculty. Among many departments in Philosophical Faculty there's a department of sociology.

There is also a fully separate Economics University, with its own faculties and departments.

It's a nice example of how the fact that economics is just one of many subdisciplines of sociology is concealed and instead, an impression is created that economics can exists as a fully separate discipline independent of any sociological factors.

Re: Economists versus the Economy

#80
post #66
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact there is no alternative doesn't mean we should use something that we know barely works. This is exactly the problem with economism

That all sounds very clever and all, but there's still a rather important question being left unanswered here: on what basis should a government make decisions? Coin flips? Gut feelings? The phase of the moon? Let's say you're the King of the United States. One of your noblemen comes in to your palace and says 'Your majesty, I suggest we eliminate corporate taxation and replace the lost revenue with a tax on consumpt…

We live in a large nation, why not let a few states trial a program before running it nationally? Move fast and break things isn't good enough when lives and livelihoods are at risk in my opinion.
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