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The Fighter

nytimes.com

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Re: The Fighter

#31

Post by bootload »

ryanmarsh wrote: post #24
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #14

As an Iraq War veteran myself I'm pretty sick of these stories being what get headlines and pages of coverage about military members. People read these pieces and think it defines an entire generation of War Veterans. It doesn't. No hit on the authors, they all seem to be genuinely wanting to help/tell a compelling story - but I think it comes with some kind of fetish for war that they are trying to get in touch with…

> We take care of our own as best we can, and people fall through the cracks This statement disgusts me. I struggled immensely transitioning from combat to civilian life. Nobody helped until years later I got lucky and someone referred me to a preacher who was also a therapist. The VA threw pills at myself and my brothers. Some of them are dead now. Some took their own lives on purpose, others on accident living dang…

"I'm so upset by your comment. It's so wrong. Killing people, getting killed, being constantly in threat of mortal danger, these things break our brains."

One thing I keep in mind, thinking about this stuff is proximity to violence. The closer, the greater the damage. A cushioning factor, the people around you. When the group of people who serve are a small percentage of the population this becomes a big problem.

There are no modern rituals for warriors to re-integrate back into society. That's also problem that could be addressed. In 2015 and 2016 a new ritual, ^Vets Town Hall^ [0][1] started. Given a chance talking at a place like this at least, gives Veterans like yourself a voice. It also gives civilians, like myself a chance to hear you.

[0] https://moulton.house.gov/legislative-center/congressman-mou...

[1] http://www.vetstownhall.org/about

Re: The Fighter

#32

Post by dumb-saint »

ryanmarsh wrote: post #24
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #14

As an Iraq War veteran myself I'm pretty sick of these stories being what get headlines and pages of coverage about military members. People read these pieces and think it defines an entire generation of War Veterans. It doesn't. No hit on the authors, they all seem to be genuinely wanting to help/tell a compelling story - but I think it comes with some kind of fetish for war that they are trying to get in touch with…

> We take care of our own as best we can, and people fall through the cracks This statement disgusts me. I struggled immensely transitioning from combat to civilian life. Nobody helped until years later I got lucky and someone referred me to a preacher who was also a therapist. The VA threw pills at myself and my brothers. Some of them are dead now. Some took their own lives on purpose, others on accident living dang…

With no lack of empathy for the veterans (of all countries) and the horrible things they go through...

Don't you guys ask yourself how come you are always at war? Why you have "generations of veterans", even though you have by far the most powerful military force to ever have existed?

There is no credible conventional threat to the US, and there is no unconventional one that can be mitigated by fighting a war.

Not participating in unnecessary wars would help the mental health of soldiers much more than therapy or whatever else.

Re: The Fighter

#33

Post by enraged_camel »

ryanmarsh wrote: post #24
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #14

As an Iraq War veteran myself I'm pretty sick of these stories being what get headlines and pages of coverage about military members. People read these pieces and think it defines an entire generation of War Veterans. It doesn't. No hit on the authors, they all seem to be genuinely wanting to help/tell a compelling story - but I think it comes with some kind of fetish for war that they are trying to get in touch with…

> We take care of our own as best we can, and people fall through the cracks This statement disgusts me. I struggled immensely transitioning from combat to civilian life. Nobody helped until years later I got lucky and someone referred me to a preacher who was also a therapist. The VA threw pills at myself and my brothers. Some of them are dead now. Some took their own lives on purpose, others on accident living dang…

I hope the OP responds to your comment. I have a feeling he won't, though.

Re: The Fighter

#34

Post by omegant »

ryanmarsh wrote: post #28
danso wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not hearing the full story because the data collection for such research is inherently costly and problematic. As evidenced by the OP, we don't even have a full picture of PTSD among our own troops, nor even the VA resources to take care of the diagnosed veterans. On the opposing side, we don't even have an accurate accounting for those actually killed , nevermind the mental state of those who have survived.

There's a good book comprising all of the gov't data on how veterans faired after WWII. They did collect a lot of data and I found their insights surprising and relevant to me. I apologize I cannot remember the books title. I happened across it in a library I can't visit anymore.

"On killing"?

Re: The Fighter

#35

Post by spangry »

ChrisNorstrom wrote: post #2

We hear a lot about Post Traumatic Stress Disorder from the point of view of the soldiers but I feel we're not seeing the full picture nor hearing the full story. What about soldiers, and civilians, and even the opposition? Is there any research or information for the following: - Do men or women suffer more from PTSD? - Which ages suffer from PTSD? - Which groups are more likely to have PTSD: the soldiers (us), the…

Your feeling is probably correct. The NY Times ran an interesting piece in June covering research indicating that some cases of PTSD might actually be the manifestation of traumatic physical brain injury: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/magazine/what-if-ptsd-is-m...

Obviously this is an area that warrants careful study, and not jumping to conclusions. I don't doubt that many, perhaps most, cases of returned soldier dysfunction (sorry for the clumsy phrase) are the psychological after-effects of being exposed to the horrors of war. But this new research means we also shouldn't immediately rule out physical damage to the brain as a possible cause. Incidentally this research brings us full-circle, back to some of the theories during WWI about 'shell-shocked' soldiers.

Re: The Fighter

#36

Post by EliRivers »

stonogo wrote: post #6
EliRivers wrote: post #5

The after effects of the monumentally fucked-up childish decisions, over the last 15 or so years, to engage in wars and contested occupations (although thankfully that's something we seem to have grown out of) are going to run and run. I sometimes look at the current batch of world leaders (and aspiring upcomers) and wonder which of them need pushing under a bus now to stop this happening again. It's so hard to tell.…

Are you being ironic, or are you actually calling for deposing of world leaders by force in the name of peace? You see how this could confuse people who are reading this post, right?

Are you being ironic, or are you actually calling for deposing of world leaders by force in the name of peace?

Here's your irony; deposing of world leaders by force in the name of peace is exactly the practice of the US, the UK and other such nations that causes so much trouble. Although it does seem to be less fashionable than it was; I suppose even our system can't spin away the colossal failures. I remember when Iraq was going to be a western liberal democracy in a year.

Re: The Fighter

#37

Post by mercer »

bootload wrote: post #31
ryanmarsh wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We take care of our own as best we can, and people fall through the cracks This statement disgusts me. I struggled immensely transitioning from combat to civilian life. Nobody helped until years later I got lucky and someone referred me to a preacher who was also a therapist. The VA threw pills at myself and my brothers. Some of them are dead now. Some took their own lives on purpose, others on accident living dang…

"I'm so upset by your comment. It's so wrong. Killing people, getting killed, being constantly in threat of mortal danger, these things break our brains." One thing I keep in mind, thinking about this stuff is proximity to violence. The closer, the greater the damage. A cushioning factor, the people around you. When the group of people who serve are a small percentage of the population this becomes a big problem. The…

I believe your (excellent) point also applies to the broader issue of mental health.

Based on being around and close to many people with mental health problems (and, to some degree, based on my personal experience), a major problem is transitioning back into society after prolonged periods of 'problems' and/or therapy. Quite a number of them struggled for years to get back into some kind of 'normal' life, if they managed to do so at all.

In a few cases I've even wondered if they'd been better off not being treated and labeled and instead figuring out over time how to cope or deal with their problems in better ways.

It's like breaking a leg and - after it being fixed and healed - being sent home without any physical therapy or instructions on how to regain muscle strength, and everyone expects you to just get up and walk like they do.

Now, and I can't emphasize this enough, I'm not saying that therapy is a bad idea. In many cases it's absolutely necessary and in most cases it's the best we can do what with our limited understanding of the mind and the society/reality we live in.

But still, I wonder if the success rate of treatment for things like depression, addiction, and many other problems would be significantly higher if we put more effort into the rehabilitation process, both as 'caregivers' and as a society.

It's difficult to raise this issue without getting into the problem of the hyper-individualistic nature of (western) society though, which I think lies at the root of this issue (and perhaps at the root of many mental health issues). Perhaps we've prized and institutionalized freedom of choice and self-sufficiency so much that we forgot how to deal with those who, for various reasons, are unable to.

Re: The Fighter

#38

Post by 13of40 »

dumb-saint wrote: post #32
ryanmarsh wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We take care of our own as best we can, and people fall through the cracks This statement disgusts me. I struggled immensely transitioning from combat to civilian life. Nobody helped until years later I got lucky and someone referred me to a preacher who was also a therapist. The VA threw pills at myself and my brothers. Some of them are dead now. Some took their own lives on purpose, others on accident living dang…

With no lack of empathy for the veterans (of all countries) and the horrible things they go through... Don't you guys ask yourself how come you are always at war? Why you have "generations of veterans", even though you have by far the most powerful military force to ever have existed? There is no credible conventional threat to the US, and there is no unconventional one that can be mitigated by fighting a war. Not pa…

> Don't you guys ask yourself how come you are always at war?

Actually, I'm a veteran, son of a veteran, son of a son of a veteran, and we all served in between wars, so we're not exactly "always at war".

But all bullshit aside, why would you lay that kind of blame on the people who rolled the dice (choosing between enlisting and working at DQ to pay off their double-wide) and now have to go out and do the job, versus the people who are making a profit every time we shoot off a $200K TOW round? There are, like, half a dozen people in the Army who could raise their hand and say "let's have a war" and have it actually mean anything, but you're asking veterans why they fight wars.

Re: The Fighter

#39

Post by bootload »

enraged_camel wrote: post #33
ryanmarsh wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We take care of our own as best we can, and people fall through the cracks This statement disgusts me. I struggled immensely transitioning from combat to civilian life. Nobody helped until years later I got lucky and someone referred me to a preacher who was also a therapist. The VA threw pills at myself and my brothers. Some of them are dead now. Some took their own lives on purpose, others on accident living dang…

I hope the OP responds to your comment. I have a feeling he won't, though.

"I hope the OP responds to your comment. I have a feeling he won't, though"

Trying to pit man against man, service against service? There's a concept that isn't understood enough. Respect, "Respect behind the wire". You'll find this in military circles because? [0]

[0] Why? In tribes, your survival may depend on someone else helping you ~ http://bigthink.com/videos/sebastian-junger-on-tribalism-and...

Re: The Fighter

#40

Post by andrewvijay »

Incredible amount of respect for the author for such a huge high quality article! Cannot imagine the amount of hard work that must have been put into writing it.
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