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The Fighter

nytimes.com

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Re: The Fighter

#21

Post by tastythrowaway2 »

3131s wrote: post #13
vinhboy wrote: post #11

I wonder if the shock of going from a first world country to a third world country contributes to these problems. Imagine for a second you're a white male growing up in rural America. Your first experience with the rest of world is a Iraq... It must be traumatizing.

What would be traumatizing is blowing out a six year old's brains in your first firefight, which the article mentions was the case for Sam Siatta's squadron. I hardly think going to a poor country in itself is the main source of trauma for veterans. It's the violence that happens there and the later realization of the utter futility of the whole thing, the realization that you were used as a pawn for the benefit of w…

preach!

Re: The Fighter

#22

Post by wyager »

accountface wrote: post #18
bootload wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm pretty sick of these stories being what get headlines and pages of coverage about military members. ... No hit on the authors, they all seem to be genuinely wanting to help/tell a compelling story - but I think it comes with some kind of fetish for war that they are trying to get in touch with." There is truth to what you say. The biggest issue I see, isn't the story so much trauma, trauma and war are hand maide…

Chivers surprised me. I set out to stereotype him as some gun fetishist and walked away from his book about the AK-47 with a full sense that small-arms proliferation is one of the worst things to happen in human history.

That seems like a strange conclusion to reach. Humanity is per-capita less violent than ever, despite probably the highest per-capita small arms density in history. My suspicion is that the techniques available for individuals to kill each other has little impact on their proclivity to kill each other. Of course, that says nothing about the impact of increasingly effective large-scale weapons (nuclear/biological/chemical) on the proclivity of organizations like governments to kill people.

Re: The Fighter

#23

Post by JumpCrisscross »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #17
bootload wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm pretty sick of these stories being what get headlines and pages of coverage about military members. ... No hit on the authors, they all seem to be genuinely wanting to help/tell a compelling story - but I think it comes with some kind of fetish for war that they are trying to get in touch with." There is truth to what you say. The biggest issue I see, isn't the story so much trauma, trauma and war are hand maide…

main-stream western society is shielded from the military. There is no common experience. Period. That's the bigger story. We talk about this a lot and it's an odd topic. On the one hand it's great that western countries have the luxury of having so few impacts from wars that many don't even know that the US still has 8,400 military personnel in Afghanistan. On the other hand it makes the population really not give a…

> it makes the population really not give a shit about issues surrounding formal war

Soldiers are between truck drivers and lawyers. More tactile than, and similarly skilled as, most of them. The luxury of the first world is the population's ability to ignore dying soldiers.

Re: The Fighter

#24

Post by ryanmarsh »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #14

As an Iraq War veteran myself I'm pretty sick of these stories being what get headlines and pages of coverage about military members. People read these pieces and think it defines an entire generation of War Veterans. It doesn't. No hit on the authors, they all seem to be genuinely wanting to help/tell a compelling story - but I think it comes with some kind of fetish for war that they are trying to get in touch with…

> We take care of our own as best we can, and people fall through the cracks

This statement disgusts me. I struggled immensely transitioning from combat to civilian life. Nobody helped until years later I got lucky and someone referred me to a preacher who was also a therapist. The VA threw pills at myself and my brothers. Some of them are dead now. Some took their own lives on purpose, others on accident living dangerously. Some have spent time in prison for turning violent. I count myself incredibly lucky that I didn't kill anyone and wind up in prison.

I'm so upset by your comment. It's so wrong. Killing people, getting killed, being constantly in threat of mortal danger, these things break our brains. We do not take care of our own the best we can. We do a shit job of it IMO.

Re: The Fighter

#25

Post by specialist »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #14

As an Iraq War veteran myself I'm pretty sick of these stories being what get headlines and pages of coverage about military members. People read these pieces and think it defines an entire generation of War Veterans. It doesn't. No hit on the authors, they all seem to be genuinely wanting to help/tell a compelling story - but I think it comes with some kind of fetish for war that they are trying to get in touch with…

...and those who aren't willing to help themselves...

It's simple. Help people help themselves, help those who can't.

People with diseases often can't help themselves. Whether its caused by drugs, war, poverty, assault, cancer, whatever. Because they're sick. And people do all sorts of stupid things when they're sick.

So lets stop treating our vets like they need special treatment - good or bad.

Tough love and neglect is a suboptimal strategy for treating PTSD.

My bestie served, he was harmed; he was fine until he wasn't. He deserves whatever consideration we can offer.

I'm glad you and most others weren't harmed that way. Have some empathy for those not so fortunate.

Re: The Fighter

#26

Post by ryanmarsh »

taurath wrote: post #12

We just don't have many institutions left in the us to care for people after trauma, and the few we have are as impersonal as possible. It's hard to come back to ones family after seeing terrible things. Honestly I can't help but feel that the lack of community in modern life tends to exacerbate all these problems. If you don't know your neighbors there can be little to latch onto other than places and things. The im…

> We just don't have many institutions left in the us to care for people after trauma

Did we ever? I don't recall my grandfather getting much help (with what we would now call PTSD) from the community or otherwise.

Re: The Fighter

#27

Post by ryanmarsh »

3131s wrote: post #13
vinhboy wrote: post #11

I wonder if the shock of going from a first world country to a third world country contributes to these problems. Imagine for a second you're a white male growing up in rural America. Your first experience with the rest of world is a Iraq... It must be traumatizing.

What would be traumatizing is blowing out a six year old's brains in your first firefight, which the article mentions was the case for Sam Siatta's squadron. I hardly think going to a poor country in itself is the main source of trauma for veterans. It's the violence that happens there and the later realization of the utter futility of the whole thing, the realization that you were used as a pawn for the benefit of w…

Forget the politics. Just seeing that shit happen fucks with you.

Re: The Fighter

#28

Post by ryanmarsh »

danso wrote: post #4
ChrisNorstrom wrote: post #2

We hear a lot about Post Traumatic Stress Disorder from the point of view of the soldiers but I feel we're not seeing the full picture nor hearing the full story. What about soldiers, and civilians, and even the opposition? Is there any research or information for the following: - Do men or women suffer more from PTSD? - Which ages suffer from PTSD? - Which groups are more likely to have PTSD: the soldiers (us), the…

We're not hearing the full story because the data collection for such research is inherently costly and problematic. As evidenced by the OP, we don't even have a full picture of PTSD among our own troops, nor even the VA resources to take care of the diagnosed veterans. On the opposing side, we don't even have an accurate accounting for those actually killed , nevermind the mental state of those who have survived.

There's a good book comprising all of the gov't data on how veterans faired after WWII. They did collect a lot of data and I found their insights surprising and relevant to me. I apologize I cannot remember the books title. I happened across it in a library I can't visit anymore.

Re: The Fighter

#29

Post by specialist »

ryanmarsh wrote: post #26
taurath wrote: post #12

We just don't have many institutions left in the us to care for people after trauma, and the few we have are as impersonal as possible. It's hard to come back to ones family after seeing terrible things. Honestly I can't help but feel that the lack of community in modern life tends to exacerbate all these problems. If you don't know your neighbors there can be little to latch onto other than places and things. The im…

> We just don't have many institutions left in the us to care for people after trauma Did we ever? I don't recall my grandfather getting much help (with what we would now call PTSD) from the community or otherwise.

As I understand it, likelihood of trauma (PTSD) rises sharply with time spent in actual combat. During WWII, even places like Battle of the Bulge, infantry were on the front lines a few weeks. That amount has gone up steadily with Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and so forth.

Re: The Fighter

#30

Post by bootload »

wyager wrote: post #22
accountface wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chivers surprised me. I set out to stereotype him as some gun fetishist and walked away from his book about the AK-47 with a full sense that small-arms proliferation is one of the worst things to happen in human history.

That seems like a strange conclusion to reach. Humanity is per-capita less violent than ever, despite probably the highest per-capita small arms density in history. My suspicion is that the techniques available for individuals to kill each other has little impact on their proclivity to kill each other. Of course, that says nothing about the impact of increasingly effective large-scale weapons (nuclear/biological/chem…

"Humanity is per-capita ^less violent^ than ever,"

Relative, like standing at the side of the road instead of in it. One reason I never talk about stuff like this is ppl who intellectualise rather than show any understanding of emotional response.

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