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Economists versus the Economy

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Re: Economists versus the Economy

#51
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scientists cannot accurately predict what the temperature in my city will be next month, so is climatology a science? Economists could make predictions in isolated systems - the problem is 'the real world' is complex. Worse - the economy is made up of human actors, and policy makers, investors, all of whom make decisions that are not necessarily rational. Ergo, in such systems, it's pretty hard to determine outcomes.…

> Scientists cannot accurately predict what the temperature in my city will be next month, so is climatology a science? weather forecasts have been getting more and more accurate, actually

Weather is inherently unpredictable. They'll never be perfect.

I missed the most important point: because the economy is made up of intelligent actors - there is a dynamic aspect to economist predictions.

If the weatherman says 'it will be 'very hot' next week' - this can be right or wrong, but the weather won't change as a result.

If a prominent economist says 'there will be a recession next month' - business leaders may hold up on investment thereby causing a recession, where none might have been.

So it's pretty hard to predict the future, when your predictions change the future ;)

Re: Economists versus the Economy

#52
post #5

http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2016/10/brad-delong-end...

Exactly. This is the real reason why economists get it so wrong: their incentives. Brad DeLong in particular is a real piece of work: http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/06/clinton-loyalist-autc...

Sad thing about guys like Delong was the guy they despised for crass careerist reasons was the one candidate in a long while that would have been open to hearing them out on their policy proposals.

Re: Economists versus the Economy

#53
There's a big difference between the economic topics that get the most media attention, and areas in which the majority of economists work.

I studied economics for 4 years and now work as an economist. I've never met a colleague/teacher who claimed to be able to forecast inflation/GDP growth over the next four quarters or correctly identify miss-priced assets.

Some examples of the questions I have seen economists address:

  - How much might labour supply change following a change in tax policy?

  - What is the impact of online advertising through different channels on a company's incremental sales?

  - How would a merger between two companies affect the price and quality of their output?

  - How can you detect collusion between bidders in tender markets?
A lot of the work seemed convincing to me, and lead to insights beyond the common sense intuition of politicians/businessmen who were familiar with the domain.

Even if you think economists aren't helpful for predicting inflation/GDP growth or identifying miss-priced assets (I'm inclined to agree), there are lots of important questions about market dynamics and policy evaluation where economics does give us genuine insight. I also find it really fun!

Re: Economists versus the Economy

#54
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Scientists cannot accurately predict what the temperature in my city will be next month, so is climatology a science? weather forecasts have been getting more and more accurate, actually

Weather is inherently unpredictable. They'll never be perfect. I missed the most important point: because the economy is made up of intelligent actors - there is a dynamic aspect to economist predictions. If the weatherman says 'it will be 'very hot' next week' - this can be right or wrong, but the weather won't change as a result. If a prominent economist says 'there will be a recession next month' - business leader…

That just seems like it makes it easier! You predict a recession, you're wrong, but you end up being right anyway!

Re: Economists versus the Economy

#55
It's possible to graduate from an economics program without knowing what the IMF does, or how a bank works, or how trade agreements work, or what the major imports and exports from China are. That suggests to me that something has gone badly wrong with economics education.

Re: Economists versus the Economy

#56

It's possible to graduate from an economics program without knowing what the IMF does, or how a bank works, or how trade agreements work, or what the major imports and exports from China are. That suggests to me that something has gone badly wrong with economics education.

As someone who went through an undergrad econ program, I strongly disagree for a few reasons:

1. Econ programs focus early on building basic mathematical models; a pretty normal curriculum is microeconomics, macroeconomics, econometrics (using stats + data), and then whatever you want your electives to be (e.g. international trade economics, labor economics, etc.). Without being fluent in at least the basic models, you don't have any framework with which to work with other subtopics, but learning the basics takes most of your time.

2. The specifics of how banks are run, or central banks work, or what we trade with China today, is more or less irrelevant trivia unless you actually work in that part of finance or will become a policy-focused economist, and you'll have plenty of time in your PhD to figure those details out. Economics is an extremely broad field and you can easily make a useful career out of, say, analyzing corporate acquisitions, or doing pure game theory, in which case how monetary or trade policy is conducted is pretty much irrelevant to you.

3. Since graduating, I found my econ education was extremely helpful when learning how central banks actually print money, or how trade agreements are put together, because I have a general high-level picture of how things move. That's in contrast to people who think just because base money is increasing, there must be inflation -- if you've worked with the models much, you know they're all approximations, but you get a much better sense for what is a reasonable vs. unreasonable result.

I mean this is like complaining it's possible to get a CS undergrad degree without knowing how the Linux kernel works, or getting an CS PhD without knowing the details of TCP control flow.

Both economics and CS are large fields and practitioners don't all work on the same thing -- the point of the degree is to provide a shared language and foundation, not to teach you every practical skill there is, because that's impossible and the relevant skills change very quickly.

Re: Economists versus the Economy

#57
post #43

> Economists claim to make precise what is vague, and are convinced that economics is superior to all other disciplines, because the objectivity of money enables it to measure historical forces exactly, rather than approximately. Economist here. Maybe some economists make this very bold, presumptive claim. But I'll be honest, money very rarely enters into the paradigm; rather resource allocation and maximizing utilit…

>resource allocation and maximizing utility are the common approach.

Utility maximisation has always struck me as a horrible way to do modelling. In most cases your results must depend heavily on the form of utility function you choose. And you always have to make a choice since utility functions are unobservable.

Re: Economists versus the Economy

#58

>Policymakers don’t know what to do. They press the usual (and unusual) levers and nothing happens. That's not really true if they're refusing to push the Keynesian levers for ideological reasons.

That's not really true if they're refusing to push the Keynesian levers for ideological reasons.

snort Everyone's a Keynesian when it's time to spend but Keynes also said to pay down your debts on the upswing of the cycle, and guess what everyone didn't do?

Re: Economists versus the Economy

#59
"The economists are leveraging their academic prestige with secret reports justifying corporate concentration. Their predictions are often wrong and consumers pay the price.

If the government ends up approving the $85 billion AT&T-Time Warner merger, credit won’t necessarily belong to the executives, bankers, lawyers, and lobbyists pushing for the deal. More likely, it will be due to the professors.

A serial acquirer, AT&T must persuade the government to allow every major deal. Again and again, the company has relied on economists from America’s top universities to make its case before the Justice Department or the Federal Trade Commission. Moonlighting for a consulting firm named Compass Lexecon, they represented AT&T when it bought Centennial, DirecTV, and Leap Wireless; and when it tried unsuccessfully to absorb T-Mobile. And now AT&T and Time Warner have hired three top Compass Lexecon economists to counter criticism that the giant deal would harm consumers and concentrate too much media power in one company.

Today, “in front of the government, in many cases the most important advocate is the economist and lawyers come second,” said James Denvir, an antitrust lawyer at Boies, Schiller.

Economists who specialize in antitrust — affiliated with Chicago, Harvard, Princeton, the University of California, Berkeley, and other prestigious universities — reshaped their field through scholarly work showing that mergers create efficiencies of scale that benefit consumers. But they reap their most lucrative paydays by lending their academic authority to mergers their corporate clients propose. Corporate lawyers hire them from Compass Lexecon and half a dozen other firms to sway the government by documenting that a merger won’t be “anti-competitive”: in other words, that it won’t raise retail prices, stifle innovation, or restrict product offerings. Their optimistic forecasts, though, often turn out to be wrong, and the mergers they champion may be hurting the economy.

President Obama promised to fight corporate concentration. Eight years later, the airline industry is dominated by just four companies. And you’re paying for it. "Some of the (Economics)professors earn more than top partners at major law firms. Dennis Carlton, a self-effacing economist at the University of Chicago’s Booth School of Business and one of Compass Lexecon’s experts on the AT&T-Time Warner merger, charges at least $1,350 an hour. In his career, he has made about $100 million, including equity stakes and non-compete payments, ProPublica estimates. Carlton has written reports or testified in favor of dozens of mergers, including those between AT&T-SBC Communications and Comcast-Time Warner, and three airline deals: United-Continental, Southwest-Airtran, and American-US Airways.

https://www.propublica.org/article/these-professors-make-mor...

Re: Economists versus the Economy

#60
post #43

> Economists claim to make precise what is vague, and are convinced that economics is superior to all other disciplines, because the objectivity of money enables it to measure historical forces exactly, rather than approximately. Economist here. Maybe some economists make this very bold, presumptive claim. But I'll be honest, money very rarely enters into the paradigm; rather resource allocation and maximizing utilit…

>resource allocation and maximizing utility are the common approach. Utility maximisation has always struck me as a horrible way to do modelling. In most cases your results must depend heavily on the form of utility function you choose. And you always have to make a choice since utility functions are unobservable.

I guess it is, if you seek analytic solutions to problems. But I personally found the concept utility to be absolutely enlightening as a way of thinking about individual and societal dynamics.
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