Tesla footage of braking before crash ahead [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla footage of braking before crash ahead [video]

#261

Post by Animats » Wed, Dec 28, 2016, 6:53 PM UTC

Road and Track says no.[1] "Except, if you watch the video, you can clearly see cars stopping ahead of the driver who isn't paying attention starting at the two second mark." What you're seeing here is that radars are much better at range rate than vision. Range rate data from a radar is as good at long range as it is at short range.

Fortunately, they were right behind the accident. If the wreckage was stopped and partially blocking the left lane, Tesla's autopilot probably would have plowed into it. Like this fatal crash in China[2] and this non-fatal crash in Germany.[3]

[1] http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/videos/a32073/no-tes... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc0yYJ8-Dyo [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqfgDrynm78

Re: Tesla footage of braking before crash ahead [video]

#262

Post by agumonkey » Wed, Dec 28, 2016, 6:54 PM UTC

martin_bech wrote: post #30

This is exactly how Elon described the system. Forward looking radar now bounces radar under car in front, getting back location of 2nd car in front, and responding to sudden braking etc.

link in case https://youtu.be/cG3Jp5GyPoc

the system is indeed very interesting, and even the presentation is clear and useful. Serious kudos to everybody at Tesla.

Re: Tesla footage of braking before crash ahead [video]

#263

Post by jlarocco » Wed, Dec 28, 2016, 6:54 PM UTC

kevin42 wrote: post #255

elif wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know your situation, but my experience driving big heavy stuff is that sometimes a yellow light does not provide enough warning to stop 55mph * crazy weight, and you sometimes find yourself with a dilemma of entering an intersection just after a light has changed, or a few seconds after the light has changed.

It sounds to me like the driver shouldn't be going 55mph in the first place, if they can't stop before the yellow light turns red. It's similar to icy roads. If you go the normal speed limit and you slide into another car, it's your fault. The fact that the speed limit was higher than your speed doesn't release the driver from responsibility.

That part's not really up to the driver, though.

It's the responsibility of the traffic engineers to make sure the yellow light is long enough to accommodate reasonable braking time and distance for all of the traffic that can be on the road, travelling at the posted speed limit. They can lower the speed limit, increase the yellow light duration, or put up a sign limiting the max vehicle weight.

It's not reasonable to expect every driver to know detailed information like yellow light times for every intersection and section of road.

Re: Tesla footage of braking before crash ahead [video]

#264

Post by notheguyouthink » Wed, Dec 28, 2016, 6:55 PM UTC

fixermark wrote: post #258

thesimpsons1022 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah i try to do that but then other cars just merge in between the space i leave in front of me and force me to be on their tail. meanwhile the guy behind me never leaves enough distance either. safe driving doesn't mean anything when others drive recklessly

Precisely the problem. Safe follow distance isn't an evolutionarily-stable strategy. The number of accidents avoided by people following it is more than offset (at least psychologically in the minds of the drivers) by the perception that people are constantly cutting you off if you adhere to it. Since punishments for failing to adhere to it are few and far between, drivers get sloppy. It's the sort of thing you could…

> It's the sort of thing you could, however, program into a robot and expect the robot to adhere to it.

I've often wondered what people will initially do when being driven around by a robot. How anxious will it make them feel, not to give up control, but to see a robot driving "so slowly". Not going 10 over, letting other drivers in when possible, always slowing to keep a safe distance, not passing aggressively if someone is going a few miles under, etc.

In the far future, i suspect people will be so used to being driven that they won't care how fast they're going. They can browse, work, surf, do whatever they like. But the first wave of drivers being driven.. it's going to be interesting to see how people respond to it.

And that's not even accounting for the drivers who still driving, but seeing robots on the road. I bet they'll always want to pass robots asap.

Re: Tesla footage of braking before crash ahead [video]

#265

Post by albedoa » Wed, Dec 28, 2016, 6:55 PM UTC

rackbreaker wrote: post #238

Infernal wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the car behind didn't show turn signal". If you're referring to the pink hatchback that ultimately rear-ended the SUV - the pink hatchback seems to be making a lane change to the right after passing. The driver seems to have signaled and looked to the right to clear his/her blindspot at the same moment the SUV ahead slams on the brakes. It really seems like bad luck, that traffic would…

At 0:00 the pink hatchback is well behind the car it's trying to pass. At 0:02 the brake lights of the SUV illuminate; the pink hatchback is still not quite caught up to the car it's trying to pass. Instead of braking, the hatchback keeps accelerating trying to beat the closing gap. No signaling at any time. Looks much more like bad judgment than bad luck.

No signaling at any time.

You're just missing the signal. Look at the upper-right of the hatchback at 4 seconds.

Re: Tesla footage of braking before crash ahead [video]

#266

Post by niftich » Wed, Dec 28, 2016, 6:55 PM UTC

empath75 wrote: post #163

Rapzid wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I usually break fast initially and check the rearview; extend the braking distance to allow extra room for the person behind if they are too close.

When I'm driving, I'm usually always thinking about having escape paths. I get nervous if I don't have a shoulder or a clear lane next to me, unless traffic slowed to a near stop.

An understated point.

On freeways, each lane tends to develop its own speed, and at 4+ lanes the cognitive load starts to overwhelm me, especially when the relative speed difference between neighboring lanes is very high. At this point anyone in a slow lane may decide to try to pull out into the fast lane, or someone from the faster lanes might try to squeeze in to the queue of waiting cars; meanwhile if you try to unilaterally lessen the speed difference, the people behind and around you will get antsy and aggressive, often defeating the point.

These situations are some of the most dangerous that most driver experience: high speeds, large discrepancy between speeds, and limited escape paths.

Re: Tesla footage of braking before crash ahead [video]

#267

Post by GavinMcG » Wed, Dec 28, 2016, 6:59 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #225

GavinMcG wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was asking a question, not making a claim. Though I obviously made it clear what I think the answer likely is, I'm genuinely interested in the thoughts others can contribute. I'm not sure what the snarky response contributes, though.

I'm just illustrating that you're doing the same thing you're advocating against, so it's rather self-defeating. If this sort of vague, personal thinking is OK, then your post is pointless. If it's not, then your post is bad. Either way, it doesn't make any sense.

There's a deep difference between a conversation inviting disagreement and those with solid evidence to step in, and a strident claim that will only be addressed and corrected by people who are willing to be confrontational.

Re: Tesla footage of braking before crash ahead [video]

#268

Post by givinguflac » Wed, Dec 28, 2016, 7:00 PM UTC

akamaka wrote: post #243

beat wrote: post #210

Yesterday, I was saying that autopiloted trucks would take over the long-haul trucking industries. This is why . Driver errors with semis on the highway kill thousands every year. This kind of technology will save lives - not just of the Tesla drivers (or other autopiloted drivers), but of the vehicles they don't hit.

Saving any lives in great, but trucks are a very small part of the problem. Out of 33883 US traffic deaths in 2009, 3380 involved trucks, and truck driver error was listed as a cause 26% of the time. Self driving long-haul trucks probably won't save "thousands" of lives, but certainly hundreds. http://www.trucking.org/ATA%20Docs/News%20and%20Information/...

Any saved is a win in my book, though point taken.

Re: Tesla footage of braking before crash ahead [video]

#269

Post by devrelm » Wed, Dec 28, 2016, 7:01 PM UTC

elif wrote: post #234

goshx wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My car, with myself and a friend inside, almost got ran over by a truck when the driver didn't even bother to slow down for the yellow light and crossed at high speed the red light. Luckily he didn't hit anyone. I totally agree with you.

I don't know your situation, but my experience driving big heavy stuff is that sometimes a yellow light does not provide enough warning to stop 55mph * crazy weight, and you sometimes find yourself with a dilemma of entering an intersection just after a light has changed, or a few seconds after the light has changed.

Right. I actually wonder how self-driving Semis will handle such a situation.

Given that it's all math at that point, I wouldn't doubt if regulations surrounding minimum yellow-light timing are updated to more accurately represent the stop time of heavy loads. Otherwise it should be easy to prove in court that stopping in time would be impossible given the speed limit & weight restrictions (or lack thereof) in place at a given intersection.

Re: Tesla footage of braking before crash ahead [video]

#270

Post by Kadin » Wed, Dec 28, 2016, 7:01 PM UTC

mejari wrote: post #242

beat wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poorly maintained autopilots would still be safer than poorly maintained drivers.

But at least if it's a poorly maintained driver the company can blame the driver and not change their practices.

They can still use the owner-operator model if they want to, and have the vehicles owned by a different entity than the freight company.

But in all seriousness, although I understand that people like to out-cynic each other, over the road trucks seem to be pretty well-maintained. Whether that's the result of safety regulations and enforcement or simple economics (a broken-down truck is not a moneymaking truck) is left as an exercise to the reader, but either way you do not see a lot of barely-making-it or broken-down commercial OTR trucks on the road. That level of poor maintenance is generally the province of private vehicles.