Amazon refuses to let police access US murder suspect’s Echo recordings • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon refuses to let police access US murder suspect’s Echo recordings

#171

Post by santix » Wed, Dec 28, 2016, 6:01 PM UTC

atmosx wrote: post #104

zubspace wrote: post #11

How can they refuse to provide the recordings in case of a warrant? It makes no sense. They even acknowledge that the device is not always-on and therefore probably not useful. Because of bad publicity? If the police stands in front of my house with a warrant to search my belongings, can I refuse that? Does it make sense if I have nothing to hide? The recordings of the water meter is more interesting and the possible…

> If the police stands in front of my house with a warrant to search my belongings, can I refuse that? Does it make sense if I have nothing to hide? Why don't you take the advice from someone who knows what he is talking about. If you're in on a hurry make sure you see part two: Part one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= interrogation (Mr. James Duane, a professor at Regent Law School and a former defence attorney) P…

The first link got truncated. Should be this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

Re: Amazon refuses to let police access US murder suspect’s Echo recordings

#172

Post by prawks » Wed, Dec 28, 2016, 6:02 PM UTC

andrewmutz wrote: post #155

Sir_Substance wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Isn't it a good thing to record data that helps solve a murder? Recording everyones data everywhere just in case it might be relevant to an extremely rare event like a murder is very dangerous. The use of NSA recording capabilities by employees to digitally stalk victims of their affection (LOVEINT) is a clear example of how badly this kind of collection can go wrong.

I think the parent comments are a separate issue from concerns about the NSA. Most people would agree that warrantless access to all data everywhere is a bad thing (smart water meter or not). In this case, there are traditional limitations on law enforcement (requirement of a warrant) and a specific crime that has been committed. In my opinion, using a warrant to get the data from the water usage device is no more pr…

I think that's a difficult comparison to make because you can reasonably secure your house against unwanted entry and it's fairly likely that breaches could be detected.

Obviously malicious law enforcement could still circumvent that just as they could a warrant depending on their level of capabilities and your house's security, but there isn't a similar path to securing your water usage data against warrant-less searching. Its security is wholly in the hands of a third party and any security breaches are essentially invisible to you.

That said, we're both painting in broad strokes.

Re: Amazon refuses to let police access US murder suspect’s Echo recordings

#173

Post by keevie » Wed, Dec 28, 2016, 6:12 PM UTC

Godel_unicode wrote: post #134

mikestew wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my POV, cops tend to ignore anything that doesn't point to "guilty". There would be no benefit to the accused in this case. IANAL, yada, yada.

That's absurd. Investigative police work is the process of ruling out possible suspects to arrive at the truth.

On TV maybe. In real life investigative police work is gathering enough evidence on a suspect that a prosecutor will take the case.

Re: Amazon refuses to let police access US murder suspect’s Echo recordings

#174

Post by marcosdumay » Wed, Dec 28, 2016, 6:16 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #158

marcosdumay wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You still have to distribute and read those sensors.

I'm imagining drones putting sensor domes with ~100 laser diodes each on top of existing street lights, using in the order of a few watts from a small solar cell and battery to do basic signal processing (most windows will be silent most of the time) and uploading anything possibly interesting over a standard mobile data connection. Then process the possibly interesting signals with a voice-to-text system similar to…

Well, yes. Quite a possibility. In fact you wouldn't need the drones. People putting them there will receive much less attention.

I still can't imagine those globes deciding what is "interesting" and what is not on a solar panel power budget. But at this point it's guaranteed to become viable at some point, and I don't have all the info to conclude it's not viable now.

Re: Amazon refuses to let police access US murder suspect’s Echo recordings

#175

Post by kefka » Wed, Dec 28, 2016, 6:18 PM UTC

Sir_Substance wrote: post #160

kefka wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, that assumes that "you" have that choice. Individually, I'm sure you can rip out, mutilate, deface, damage or what have you to devices that report fine-grained time-series data. But the moment you go anywhere else, you're being recorded, watched, monitored, measured, and recorded. It's already being done, and it's way past time that we do have that discussion. Because without string and stark dialogue,…

>Unfortunately, that assumes that "you" have that choice. >Individually, I'm sure you can rip out, mutilate, deface, damage or what have you to devices that report fine-grained time-series data. But the moment you go anywhere else, you're being recorded, watched, monitored, measured, and recorded. There are a variety of ways that this can be done, most of them revolving around visibility and community education. Stop…

> There are a variety of ways that this can be done, most of them revolving around visibility and community education.

Indeed. But I also think, that much of this community education and "awareness" has gotten people to ignore these types of things. A lot of it comes down to "ehh, whatever" or similar "convenience > privacy".

Facebook's a problem child. You have an account even when you don't have one, because other people put things up there and link to you. Indeed, having an account allows some modicum of control of other user-posted junk, whereas not having an account = no control.

Facebook also has network effect going for it; easy to chat on, and easy to see events and parties around. And being "that guy" means you're likely forgot about events. I'd love a viral solution to claw away from Fb and get my friends on. Ello seemed to be a good candidate but quickly turned into a shithole. I'll honestly have to look into Diaspora and its user-friendliness. Because again, network effects rule.

> Be the change you want to see in the world.

Indeed. I try to be. I have my own IoT infrastructure. Built it myself. I have a few different buildings I do stuff in, and use Tor to tie my network together. I've documented what I've done here: https://hackaday.io/project/12985-multisite-homeofficehacker...

> The US government doesn't give a shit about the legality of what they're doing.

Absolutely agree, being a US citizen. I am looking at emigrating elsewhere. Iceland was a consideration, as was a few other countries in Europe. But it also feels like trading one set of problems for another set of problems.

Re: Amazon refuses to let police access US murder suspect’s Echo recordings

#176

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Dec 28, 2016, 6:56 PM UTC

iak8god wrote: post #143

toxican wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looked at mine and most of it is mundane/useless stuff like "open Spotify", "How many ounces in 13 lbs", etc. But there are some "text so and so: hey meet me wherever" type recordings...I find that little concerning, but not entirely unexpected. I like that there's an option to delete all of that info, but is it -really- deleted? Or just hidden from my view and kept on Google's servers and still associated with my ac…

I just assume, unless they super-duper promise to truly purge it, that Google is hanging on to every bit.

[deleted]

Re: Amazon refuses to let police access US murder suspect’s Echo recordings

#177

Post by stormcrowsx » Wed, Dec 28, 2016, 7:26 PM UTC

Sir_Substance wrote: post #29

Hondor wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it a good thing to record data that helps solve a murder? The police are still getting it with a warrant and presumably from physical access to the device, so it's not the same worry as bulk monitoring.

>Isn't it a good thing to record data that helps solve a murder? Recording everyones data everywhere just in case it might be relevant to an extremely rare event like a murder is very dangerous. The use of NSA recording capabilities by employees to digitally stalk victims of their affection (LOVEINT) is a clear example of how badly this kind of collection can go wrong.

So we shouldn't collect data that might help solve a major crime because someone might commit a minor crime like stalking?

We're trading the potential to solve a major crime for the potential for a minor crime of stalking to happen. As long as we require that a warrant be involved in getting the data and there are punishments in place for accessing without a warrant I'd feel safe with them collecting it.

Re: Amazon refuses to let police access US murder suspect’s Echo recordings

#178

Post by Godel_unicode » Wed, Dec 28, 2016, 8:29 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #157

Godel_unicode wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This thread started with the idea that someone might want their Alexa records as evidence of their innocence. I doubt that an innocent person would commit a crime to remove potentially incriminating evidence from their voluntarily offered evidence. The prosecution very well might subpoena those records if they thought there was value in so doing. Edit: grammars

And my point is that the records are useless as evidence, since the cops can't trust them, therefore an innocent person would want Amazon to provide the recordings themselves anyway.

In the US it's the jury that needs to trust them.

Re: Amazon refuses to let police access US murder suspect’s Echo recordings

#179

Post by Godel_unicode » Wed, Dec 28, 2016, 8:43 PM UTC

keevie wrote: post #173

Godel_unicode wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's absurd. Investigative police work is the process of ruling out possible suspects to arrive at the truth.

On TV maybe. In real life investigative police work is gathering enough evidence on a suspect that a prosecutor will take the case.

You really think that "in real life" the police just arrest whoever is the first suspect and don't investigate farther? That has not been my experience.

Re: Amazon refuses to let police access US murder suspect’s Echo recordings

#180

Post by Godel_unicode » Wed, Dec 28, 2016, 8:52 PM UTC

mikestew wrote: post #164

Godel_unicode wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's absurd. Investigative police work is the process of ruling out possible suspects to arrive at the truth.

That might be the definition of "investigative police work", yes. That's not what I've observed in practice. And those that know better than I advise against giving up evidence with the idea that it will "help your case"; re: the "don't talk to the police" video that is so often referenced here.

So you think that, for instance, if the police are investigating you in connection with a bank robbery while you were in another country speaking at a conference, you should not tell them that?

What about if you are wanted for questioning about a murder which involved dragging the body a significant distance while you were in the hospital recovering from chemotherapy? Still don't talk to the cops?