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Which programming language...?

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Re: Which programming language...?

#11

Post by donw »

jacoblyles wrote: post #7
donw wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't; it's obviously written by Yet Another Bitter Python Hacker, and isn't even really that funny. I think that the best First Programming Language to learn would still be C, followed by some flavor of Lisp. C, because it's both practical and teaches you how your computer works at a low level, and Lisp, because it shows you how powerful computers can be when you strip them down to the mathematical bone. Everythin…

It is interesting that you don't recommend any languages with a proper type system. Do you believe types are not important?

Define 'proper' type system; C is a static, strongly typed language, with the important feature that the type system is simple enough for an inexperienced programmer to understand and be capable of implementing.

Re: Which programming language...?

#12

Post by calcnerd256 »

jacoblyles wrote: post #7
donw wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't; it's obviously written by Yet Another Bitter Python Hacker, and isn't even really that funny. I think that the best First Programming Language to learn would still be C, followed by some flavor of Lisp. C, because it's both practical and teaches you how your computer works at a low level, and Lisp, because it shows you how powerful computers can be when you strip them down to the mathematical bone. Everythin…

It is interesting that you don't recommend any languages with a proper type system. Do you believe types are not important?

By "proper" do you mean mandatory? Otherwise, people are going to yell "CLOS" at you.

Re: Which programming language...?

#13

Post by Bjoern »

Rabble. Not even funny.

The first language learning question is a though one. (1) Probably the best would be anything which goes out of your way to concentrate on the important concepts behind it. (2) It depends on the way you want to teach it.

Re: Which programming language...?

#14

Post by zyb09 »

fierarul wrote: post #6

> To achieve a magical sense of childlike wonder that you have a hard time differentiating from megalomania: Objective C I felt no childlike wonder while doing Objective C and this compared to Java. It's less verbose, but it's nothing that good about it. It did remind me of lisp but just barely([]). Oh, an memory management wasn't something I was looking forward to...

less verbose, really? People are giving Java crap for having to do string1.equals(string2) instead of string1 == string2, but what about [string isEqualToString:string2]. Also concating strings in Objective-C makes my eyes bleed. I still like the dynamic aspects of the language (selectors etc.) though.

Re: Which programming language...?

#15

Post by swannodette »

zyb09 wrote: post #14
fierarul wrote: post #6

> To achieve a magical sense of childlike wonder that you have a hard time differentiating from megalomania: Objective C I felt no childlike wonder while doing Objective C and this compared to Java. It's less verbose, but it's nothing that good about it. It did remind me of lisp but just barely([]). Oh, an memory management wasn't something I was looking forward to...

less verbose, really? People are giving Java crap for having to do string1.equals(string2) instead of string1 == string2, but what about [string isEqualToString:string2]. Also concating strings in Objective-C makes my eyes bleed. I still like the dynamic aspects of the language (selectors etc.) though.

[string1 isEqual:string2]

works just fine. String concatenation is no harder than a format string. Writing a category on NSArray to add join is pretty dead simple as well.

Re: Which programming language...?

#16

Post by Avshalom »

donw wrote: post #11
jacoblyles wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is interesting that you don't recommend any languages with a proper type system. Do you believe types are not important?

Define 'proper' type system; C is a static, strongly typed language, with the important feature that the type system is simple enough for an inexperienced programmer to understand and be capable of implementing.

I'm pretty sure C is considered weak in it will automatically cast from one type to another.

Re: Which programming language...?

#17

Post by WildUtah »

To learn how a practical computer works: MMIX

To understand the mathematical theory of computation: Turing Machine Tape

To follow the subject from its roots: Babbage Analytic Engine Heap

To truly grasp algorithms: Psuedocode

And which of the two editors -- EMACS or vi -- should I use? Paper and pencil.

Re: Which programming language...?

#18

Post by PostOnce »

donw wrote: post #3
d0m wrote: post #2

He is totally wrong, but I still get the point and found the post funny.

I don't; it's obviously written by Yet Another Bitter Python Hacker, and isn't even really that funny. I think that the best First Programming Language to learn would still be C, followed by some flavor of Lisp. C, because it's both practical and teaches you how your computer works at a low level, and Lisp, because it shows you how powerful computers can be when you strip them down to the mathematical bone. Everythin…

I 'learned' C first, never did anything useful. C is not beginner friendly simply because it provides no instant gratification. Python is instant gratification for newbies. You can make a GUI in five minutes. In C you have to READ A BOOK first. Console apps don't thrill young people. GUIs do.

My two cents, take it for what it's worth.

Re: Which programming language...?

#19

Post by cageface »

jacoblyles wrote: post #7
donw wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't; it's obviously written by Yet Another Bitter Python Hacker, and isn't even really that funny. I think that the best First Programming Language to learn would still be C, followed by some flavor of Lisp. C, because it's both practical and teaches you how your computer works at a low level, and Lisp, because it shows you how powerful computers can be when you strip them down to the mathematical bone. Everythin…

It is interesting that you don't recommend any languages with a proper type system. Do you believe types are not important?

I'm guessing you're referring to languages like Haskell here. I think the work people are doing on types in those languages is fascinating but it also seems like work in progress and I wouldn't recommend those languages to a beginner. The key concepts in the lisp-like languages (closures, higher-order functions, garbage collection etc) are easier to understand in a dynamic language IMO.

Re: Which programming language...?

#20

Post by amatriain »

WildUtah wrote: post #17

To learn how a practical computer works: MMIX To understand the mathematical theory of computation: Turing Machine Tape To follow the subject from its roots: Babbage Analytic Engine Heap To truly grasp algorithms: Psuedocode And which of the two editors -- EMACS or vi -- should I use? Paper and pencil.

Paper and pencil are great, until you realize you have to insert a couple of lines of code up there.
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