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The hunt for dollars to build the $64B bullet train

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Re: The hunt for dollars to build the $64B bullet train

#121

Post by DrScump »

trome wrote: post #84
DrScump wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are other opinions: http://skytrainforsurrey.org/2012/05/28/portland-or-lrt-is-c... They quote an operational farebox recovery rate of less than 28%, so taxpayers are subsidizing almost 3/4 of the operational cost plus all of the fixed costs and construction. (As disappointing as that it, it's still over 8 times better than VTA in the San Jose area!)

How is the farebox recovery rate on roadways in Oregon State? Wait, I forgot, those operate as a massive money bleed. In regards to headways, unless you are fully grade separated you can only go so tight with scheduling (fuckin' cars man, fuckin' up my mass transit!), also the number you cited appears to be made up, please cite sources.

  How is the farebox recovery rate on roadways in Oregon State?
The equivalent is auto and truck registration fees, weight fees, and fuel taxes. Does the sum of those not exceed the corresponding road maintenance?

Re: The hunt for dollars to build the $64B bullet train

#122

Post by DrScump »

johan_larson wrote: post #102

Back in the day, you could get from Berlin to Moscow and back in less than five years. Today, that's not enough time to get from LA to San Francisco.

  Back in the day, you could get from Berlin to Moscow and back in less than five years.
Like the German army in 1941-1945?

Re: The hunt for dollars to build the $64B bullet train

#123

Post by DrScump »

ido wrote: post #101
blisterpeanuts wrote: post #13

It's a pity that the United States didn't embark on a concerted effort to build a high speed rail system back in the 1950s and 1960s, when we had more money and a smaller population. And fewer lawyers. Instead we wasted a couple trillion (adjusted for inflation) on Vietnam. Think what we could have done with that money not to mention thousands of lives saved. It seems to me that California's highway problem is one of…

California is less densliy populated than a lot of quite pleasant, developed countries. Not just the dense Japan and the UK (which are actually quite nice too) but also France, Italy, Germany, Denmark, Switzerland and even the bucolic Austria. There is plenty of room even without population transfers to neighboring states.

"Room" isn't the limiting factor. Water is much more limiting.

Re: The hunt for dollars to build the $64B bullet train

#124

Post by Retric »

refurb wrote: post #114
nickff wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once heard a comment from a (George W Bush) White House staffer who said something to the effect of: 'there is no point trying to save money while we are in power, because the democrats will just come in and spend it; we should just spend it on our favorite programs.' This is somewhat aligned with Bruce Buena de Mesquita's theories on how politicians act to retain power. I think that the Bush administration's large…

Medicare Part D is actually an example of a good social program, even for those on the right side of the spectrum. The only thing the gov't does is define the parameters of the benfits and then has private insurers bid on providing benefits. It's come in well under budget projections and seniors are generally happy with how they can shop around for the right plan for them. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Is it a prett…

Part D costs twice as much as it would if run like Medicare. So, no it's a boondoggle worse than the Big Dig which had some difficult problems to solve beyond making campaign donors richer.

Re: The hunt for dollars to build the $64B bullet train

#125

Post by yummyfajitas »

rayiner wrote: post #113
yummyfajitas wrote: post #5

I'm pretty sure the people calling it a boondoggle are correct. Obama included $3B in the 2009 stimulus package for it back in 2009. Not a single yard of track has been laid. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/07/us/high-speed-train-in-ca... http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/263782-obama-high-s... The project is hoped to finish in 2029, which is 12 years from now. For comparison, China build the Qinhuangdao–Sheny…

I kinda agree with you that we should rethink the cost of infrastructure projects in the US relative to European countries. But I find the China and India comparisons disingenuous. Construction is cheap in those countries because human labor there lives at the edge. Construction laborers in America have a standard of living that rivals that of the top 5% of Indians. They are commensurately more expensive. That's a go…

Then let's have Indians and Chinese build our transit for cheap.

We can separately debate whether we should funnel tens of billion$ to unions if that's so important to you. But if we insist on tying the two policies together, that's evidence of disastrously bad governance and a good reason to do neither.

Re: The hunt for dollars to build the $64B bullet train

#126

Post by jrnichols »

I wonder if the approach/partnership taking place in Texas will have better results.

http://www.texascentral.com

"Texas Central will deploy Central Japan Railway Company’s (JRC) “N700-I Bullet” high-speed rail system based on their “Shinkansen” system that has been refined over more than 50 years of operation into the most reliable, comfortable and safe high-speed rail system in the world."

I remember when the $10 billion bond was passed in California and now over 10 years later, it seems like it was all spent on politics instead of progress.

Re: The hunt for dollars to build the $64B bullet train

#127

Post by Frondo »

DrScump wrote: post #121
trome wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is the farebox recovery rate on roadways in Oregon State? Wait, I forgot, those operate as a massive money bleed. In regards to headways, unless you are fully grade separated you can only go so tight with scheduling (fuckin' cars man, fuckin' up my mass transit!), also the number you cited appears to be made up, please cite sources.

How is the farebox recovery rate on roadways in Oregon State? The equivalent is auto and truck registration fees, weight fees, and fuel taxes. Does the sum of those not exceed the corresponding road maintenance?

Not even close. The Oregon Department of Transportation gets a ton of federal money as a huge part of its budget.

Re: The hunt for dollars to build the $64B bullet train

#128

Post by davidf18 »

One way to get the money is to enforce the law and send the illegal immigrants in California out of the country. Governments city and State and other governments spend billions of dollars for K-12 education, health care costs, and even college education for illegal immigrants.

Take the savings and invest it into bonds for the high speed railway.

Re: The hunt for dollars to build the $64B bullet train

#129

Post by nihonde »

timr wrote: post #37
scentedmeat wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that comparing China to California in terms of large scale engineering works is comparing apples to oranges (guess which is which). I disagree (kind of) on the following: > There are also a lot of rather substantial engineering issues that have to be overcome in California Japan is a mountainous, earthquake prone country, and they seem to have figured it out. The biggest problem geography-wise is probab…

"Japan is a mountainous, earthquake prone country, and they seem to have figured it out." Japan's high-speed trains also cost a hell of a lot more than the OP is talking about. The Chuo Shinkansen will cost around $51 billion for a 286km train (i.e. half the distance from SF to LA). The Hokuriku Shinkansen was much cheaper, but still 10x more expensive ($18 billion) than the Chinese line. [1] Both make the LA-SF line…

And yet the example of Japan still neatly invalidates the argument that California is inherently an especially challenging engineering project. Japan's rail projects are the platinum standard and every rich country should be trading war machine budgets to build similar transportation services for the overall good of their people. Instead, America is lost in a can't-do loop in large part because it has made personal individual liberty the indivisible unit of its society. With that choice come consequences, the most obvious of which is that people rarely work well together because they're forced to abide those among them who put their own interests above the group's.

By the way, this is also the reason that California will never be able maintain and operate HSR to the same level as Japan. It requires a hell of a team effort to do what JR does every day.

Re: The hunt for dollars to build the $64B bullet train

#130

Post by rtpg »

vilhelm_s wrote: post #75
kalleboo wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What also happens in Japan is that the train company owns that land, the mall, and maybe a couple apartment buildings nearby, so that they have an interest both in people riding the train and shopping at the mall (so e.g. the train company has an incentive to keep fares low enough to keep shoppers coming). A significant portion of Japanese train companies' income comes from retail real estate.

According to this blog post[0] the same used to be true in the U.S.---light rail was payed for by property developers. Interestingly, he says this eventually led to the collapse of the Los Angeles street car system, because it was financed by the the increase in land value, and once the development was complete there was no longer a cash stream to pay for operating costs. [0] http://kontextmaschine.tumblr.com/post/14…

This is slightly different from what Japanese companies do. Japanese train companies actually run the retail operations next to the stations in many cases, renting out store space to high-margin businesses like high-end clothing or other luxury goods. This also leaks into side businesses like credit cards (to support retail spending).

These businesses are true conglomerates

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