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The hunt for dollars to build the $64B bullet train

latimes.com

11–20 of 138 posts

Re: The hunt for dollars to build the $64B bullet train

#11
post #3

I love public transit, but there is no doubt that this is in fact a boondoggle that shouldn't be built. That money should be used to expand commuter rail in LA and SF, or better yet, implementing BRT. When we have driverless cars on the horizon, and the possibility that the hyperloop could work out, sinking what will likely turn out to be $100 billion into yesterday's technology makes absolutely no sense.

Hyperloop, if it ever gets built, will be at least 10 times more expensive than this. Building a 500 mile vacuum tube is not easy. The hyperloop hype is very unfortunate because it will prevent us from having a proper functioning train in the hope of some pie in the sky project that will probably not happen with the present technology.

Re: The hunt for dollars to build the $64B bullet train

#13
It's a pity that the United States didn't embark on a concerted effort to build a high speed rail system back in the 1950s and 1960s, when we had more money and a smaller population. And fewer lawyers. Instead we wasted a couple trillion (adjusted for inflation) on Vietnam. Think what we could have done with that money not to mention thousands of lives saved.

It seems to me that California's highway problem is one of simple over crowding. Even if they built ten high speed rails between SF and LA, it would probably not make much of a difference, and I'm not even talking about the issue of needing a vehicle once you arrive at LA central terminus. Trains carry hundreds of people; let us say, a few thousand at any given time might be carried on high speed rail cars, but this is a tiny fraction of the millions of motorists clogging the highways 24x7 all up and down the coast.

I see no solution to California's clogged highways other than to siphon some of the population off to neighboring states that are vastly less populous. Perhaps this will happen naturally as technology makes it easier to disperse workers over broader geographical areas. It seems to me that huge cities are a legacy thing anyway.

Probably the next big thing will not be speeded up 18th century iron horses, but electric long range buses and self-driving cars that will safely and quickly negotiate the computerized traffic grids of the future.

California ought to spend a few billion on embedded markers and sensors in its roads that self-driving vehicles can access; probably this will be a much better investment in the long run.

Re: The hunt for dollars to build the $64B bullet train

#14
post #6

I'm pretty sure the people calling it a boondoggle are correct. Obama included $3B in the 2009 stimulus package for it back in 2009. Not a single yard of track has been laid. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/07/us/high-speed-train-in-ca... http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/263782-obama-high-s... The project is hoped to finish in 2029, which is 12 years from now. For comparison, China build the Qinhuangdao–Sheny…

What is this actually being spent on? Studies to study the feasibility of a feasibility study to begin a study?

Probably eminent domain action. At California's real estate prices I don't imagine property will be cheap to acquire.

Re: The hunt for dollars to build the $64B bullet train

#15

I'm pretty sure the people calling it a boondoggle are correct. Obama included $3B in the 2009 stimulus package for it back in 2009. Not a single yard of track has been laid. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/07/us/high-speed-train-in-ca... http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/263782-obama-high-s... The project is hoped to finish in 2029, which is 12 years from now. For comparison, China build the Qinhuangdao–Sheny…

It is an embarrassment for the state and this country that we are unable to build something so trivial for other countries without such massive costs.

Well most of the citizens in the US don't care about public transit. The lack of seriousness about it logically follows.

Re: The hunt for dollars to build the $64B bullet train

#16

I'm pretty sure the people calling it a boondoggle are correct. Obama included $3B in the 2009 stimulus package for it back in 2009. Not a single yard of track has been laid. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/07/us/high-speed-train-in-ca... http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/263782-obama-high-s... The project is hoped to finish in 2029, which is 12 years from now. For comparison, China build the Qinhuangdao–Sheny…

It is an embarrassment for the state and this country that we are unable to build something so trivial for other countries without such massive costs.

What is the cost breakdown to build it? Equipment, labor, land? My understanding is that buying the land is extremely expensive. The original path of the train was changed so it could run through cheaper land but it's still expensive.

Re: The hunt for dollars to build the $64B bullet train

#17

I'm pretty sure the people calling it a boondoggle are correct. Obama included $3B in the 2009 stimulus package for it back in 2009. Not a single yard of track has been laid. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/07/us/high-speed-train-in-ca... http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/263782-obama-high-s... The project is hoped to finish in 2029, which is 12 years from now. For comparison, China build the Qinhuangdao–Sheny…

It is an embarrassment for the state and this country that we are unable to build something so trivial for other countries without such massive costs.

Maybe it's best that this doesn't happen because it will just turn into a boondoggle and the tax payers will be on the hook for it.

It would make sense hiring a European or Asian country to come in and build it for us with 1/5 of the resources and in 1/3 the time. If a country like Switzerland can dig through solid granite for 35 miles under a mountain (Gotthard Base Tunnel) someone out there other than a US company should be able to lay a few hundred miles of track.

Re: The hunt for dollars to build the $64B bullet train

#18

I'm pretty sure the people calling it a boondoggle are correct. Obama included $3B in the 2009 stimulus package for it back in 2009. Not a single yard of track has been laid. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/07/us/high-speed-train-in-ca... http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/263782-obama-high-s... The project is hoped to finish in 2029, which is 12 years from now. For comparison, China build the Qinhuangdao–Sheny…

We also need to focus on the right problems.

I know we all want fast trains, but if we're going through major cities we likely won't get that fast (unless we do like the Shinkansen and build the entire train on a 3-story platform).

If we're willing to spend $50 billion, let's spend that on some slower trains that connect cities anyways. Maybe you don't do LA-SF, but giving higher inter-connectivity is good.

What happens in Japan is that train stations get built, and then the surrounding area is simultaneously developped with stores and other developments. So you build a train station in the middle of nowhere, but then build an IKEA + a mall. Suddenly people have a reason to take the train! And it helps the local economies too.

Re: The hunt for dollars to build the $64B bullet train

#19

I'm pretty sure the people calling it a boondoggle are correct. Obama included $3B in the 2009 stimulus package for it back in 2009. Not a single yard of track has been laid. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/07/us/high-speed-train-in-ca... http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/263782-obama-high-s... The project is hoped to finish in 2029, which is 12 years from now. For comparison, China build the Qinhuangdao–Sheny…

There are also a lot of rather substantial engineering issues that have to be overcome in California that the train in China didn't have to consider. For example, the high speed train in California also has to cross notoriously rugged mountain ranges. The Diablo Range has a smattering of two-lane roads winding through it because it's so difficult to build through the gnarled hills. In the south, the Sierra Pelona and Tehachapi ranges almost caused California to be split in two separate before some rather remarkable feats in roadbuilding connected the two halves of the state. As such, there is an immense amount of planning, engineering studies, etc that need to take place before construction can start.

Additionally, there's a huge political element. A vocal minority of people have done everything they can to try to keep the project from taking off for various reasons. As such, there have been a rather insane amount of lawsuits filed which divert money to lawyers and time that would better be served by actually putting shovels in the ground. There are people who want it to fail for the sake of failing, because they want to bang their "government doesn't work drum" to the detriment of the taxpayers who are stuck paying for lawyers to fight their silliness.

Re: The hunt for dollars to build the $64B bullet train

#20

I'm pretty sure the people calling it a boondoggle are correct. Obama included $3B in the 2009 stimulus package for it back in 2009. Not a single yard of track has been laid. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/07/us/high-speed-train-in-ca... http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/263782-obama-high-s... The project is hoped to finish in 2029, which is 12 years from now. For comparison, China build the Qinhuangdao–Sheny…

I am reminded of Thiel's op ed in the Wapo[0]:

"Our government used to get things done [..] Our newest fighter jet has already been under development for more than 15 years and it costs more than 15 times as much as the Manhattan Project (adjusted for inflation), but last year it lost a dogfight to a plane from the 1970s [..] Instead of spending a fortune, Trump won the primaries by saying things that made sense to voters. His greatest heresy was to declare that government health care can work [..] Trump’s heretical denial of Republican dogma about government incapacity is exactly what we need to move the party — and the country — in a new direction. For the Republican Party to be a credible alternative to the Democrats’ enabling, it must stand for effective government, not for giving up on government [..] I believe that effective government will require less bureaucracy and less rulemaking; we may need to have fewer public servants, and we might need to pay some of them more."

[0]: http://wapo.st/2ceA9DK

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