Runners’ brains may be more connected, research shows • Hacker News Board

Re: Runners’ brains may be more connected, research shows

#21

Post by dredmorbius » Sat, Dec 24, 2016, 2:29 PM UTC

agumonkey wrote: post #3

I found that learning music unlocked pattern comprehensions that were very mathematical. Multiple layers of abstraction (rhythm or note points, derivatives of these two, overlay, non linear transformations, and the equivalent momentum phenomenons). Running is something that trigger creative mind activity for me. And a form of flow. I wouldn't be surprised if other physical activity would do the same: climbing, even b…

The mediaeval university curriculum was based on two foundations, the trivium and the quadrivium (collectively "the seven liberal arts").

The trivium: grammar, logic, and rhetoric. Or in computing terms: input (parsing), processing, and output.

The quadrivium: maths, geometry, music, and astronomy. "What's the connection?" you ask?

Numbers.

Numbers in space.

Numbers in time.

Numbers in space and time.

Re: Runners’ brains may be more connected, research shows

#22

Post by SomeStupidPoint » Sat, Dec 24, 2016, 2:36 PM UTC

danaliv wrote: post #11

alexandros wrote: post #9

Do we know if that is because Runners and Musicians tend to be generally better educated and raised, both those things being markers of middle- and upper- class membership?

They controlled for this. "Participants were roughly the same age — 18 to 25 — with comparable body mass index and educational levels."

Not to discredit them, because it's a hard problem, but it isn't a full control: even on a college campus (or looking at alumni) and controlling for weight, running and instrument training would still be proxies for various things about upbringing or current social status, and could account for the effects by selection bias.

That said, I think this is introductory work on the topic and definitely justifies further inquiry.

Re: Runners’ brains may be more connected, research shows

#23

Post by agumonkey » Sat, Dec 24, 2016, 2:36 PM UTC

braythwayt wrote: post #19

agumonkey wrote: post #3

I found that learning music unlocked pattern comprehensions that were very mathematical. Multiple layers of abstraction (rhythm or note points, derivatives of these two, overlay, non linear transformations, and the equivalent momentum phenomenons). Running is something that trigger creative mind activity for me. And a form of flow. I wouldn't be surprised if other physical activity would do the same: climbing, even b…

> “Music is the pleasure the human soul experiences from counting without being aware that it is counting.” -- German mathematician and philosopher Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibniz (1646-1716), who co-discovered calculus

Cute quote. I started thinking I disagreed but I confused calculus with counting/algebra .. A whole chunk of classical music is "integer" like (algebra). Jazz/Swing adds flips music around syncopation which is a massive change in mental representation. It's the difference between Harryhausen and Star Wars stop motion (or more recently keyframe tweening and Mitsuo Iso odd time animation). Macro vs Micro. And .. it aligns with Leibniz theories. It's all variations, accelerations, you're always in motion. I believe only 18th music started to care about bending time [rubato, chopin] which is akin to what I felt trying to understand jazz.

Re: Runners’ brains may be more connected, research shows

#24

Post by Broken_Hippo » Sat, Dec 24, 2016, 2:37 PM UTC

alexandros wrote: post #9

Do we know if that is because Runners and Musicians tend to be generally better educated and raised, both those things being markers of middle- and upper- class membership?

Just as a note: Runners might be more middle-to-upper class, but musicians aren't. It is more that some instruments can be expensive. Singing, rap, diy instruments aren't so, and neither is digital music.

You do, however, tend to miss out on the physical aspect of playing some of the instruments with the digital music, but not much of the rest if you pay attention.

Re: Runners’ brains may be more connected, research shows

#25

Post by agumonkey » Sat, Dec 24, 2016, 2:41 PM UTC

jabv wrote: post #20

agumonkey wrote: post #3

I found that learning music unlocked pattern comprehensions that were very mathematical. Multiple layers of abstraction (rhythm or note points, derivatives of these two, overlay, non linear transformations, and the equivalent momentum phenomenons). Running is something that trigger creative mind activity for me. And a form of flow. I wouldn't be surprised if other physical activity would do the same: climbing, even b…

I don't do body building (taking a narrow definition of the term), but I do heavy (for me) barbell lifts as part of my regular exercise routine. For some anecdata, I consistently find myself in a better frame of mind after lifting as long as I was properly focused on form, challenging myself rather than going through the motions, etc. My university education revolved around cello performance, and I find many similari…

I'd say it's the connection with the world through your body. People say meditation is looking inside you, I start to think it's what they mean. You allocate your neurons to sense more about your own body and your interface with the world. Either the movement of weights and their effect on your muscles and joints. Or the vibration caused by your bow on the strings.

When I was working out, since I was out of shape, I used the music "slowness" as a guide to doing push ups. Always going slow, very slow, and very smooth.

Even on every day chores, I realize that anything done in this fashion is relaxing, body and mind wise.

Re: Runners’ brains may be more connected, research shows

#26

Post by braythwayt » Sat, Dec 24, 2016, 2:48 PM UTC

agumonkey wrote: post #23

braythwayt wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “Music is the pleasure the human soul experiences from counting without being aware that it is counting.” -- German mathematician and philosopher Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibniz (1646-1716), who co-discovered calculus

Cute quote. I started thinking I disagreed but I confused calculus with counting/algebra .. A whole chunk of classical music is "integer" like (algebra). Jazz/Swing adds flips music around syncopation which is a massive change in mental representation. It's the difference between Harryhausen and Star Wars stop motion (or more recently keyframe tweening and Mitsuo Iso odd time animation). Macro vs Micro. And .. it ali…

This is a thread around drumming, but there is also the mathematics of intervals, harmonies, dissonance, resolution...

Music is not _like_ mathematics, music _is_ mathematics, it’s just a different way of expressing it.

Re: Runners’ brains may be more connected, research shows

#27

Post by agumonkey » Sat, Dec 24, 2016, 2:54 PM UTC

braythwayt wrote: post #26

agumonkey wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cute quote. I started thinking I disagreed but I confused calculus with counting/algebra .. A whole chunk of classical music is "integer" like (algebra). Jazz/Swing adds flips music around syncopation which is a massive change in mental representation. It's the difference between Harryhausen and Star Wars stop motion (or more recently keyframe tweening and Mitsuo Iso odd time animation). Macro vs Micro. And .. it ali…

This is a thread around drumming, but there is also the mathematics of intervals, harmonies, dissonance, resolution... Music is not _like_ mathematics, music _is_ mathematics, it’s just a different way of expressing it.

It's missing the inertia part I was trying to convey. This is rarely taught. Except for a crescendo flag on the score. But to me it is essential to what music is. Intervals, harmonies seem like side effects (I'm exagerating).

Re: Runners’ brains may be more connected, research shows

#28

Post by SFJulie » Sat, Dec 24, 2016, 2:59 PM UTC

/me is often downvoted : I should not be then.

I play bass, and can run 15km in one hour without breaking too much of a sweat.

Humm ... better means nothing... Yet another whizz bang science that is void of any sense.

But it is nice to have ego boosting article.

Re: Runners’ brains may be more connected, research shows

#29

Post by tdrd » Sat, Dec 24, 2016, 3:01 PM UTC

It's not even clear that this is about running. They compared runners to sedentary individuals; this sounds like another "exercise is good" conclusion to me.

Re: Runners’ brains may be more connected, research shows

#30

Post by braythwayt » Sat, Dec 24, 2016, 3:03 PM UTC

agumonkey wrote: post #27

braythwayt wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a thread around drumming, but there is also the mathematics of intervals, harmonies, dissonance, resolution... Music is not _like_ mathematics, music _is_ mathematics, it’s just a different way of expressing it.

It's missing the inertia part I was trying to convey. This is rarely taught. Except for a crescendo flag on the score. But to me it is essential to what music is. Intervals, harmonies seem like side effects (I'm exagerating).

I don’t know if this is wha you mean, but when listening to music, the human brain is constantly making predictions about what will happen next. Jerry Coker explains that the quality of the experience lies in the balance between the familiarity of being right and the surprise of being wrong.

Thus, when listening to syncopation, you constantly comparing what your brain hears to a steady 4/4 it ‘expects' to hear. And when listening to a soloist improvise, you are comparing the notes your brain hears to the melody it ‘expects’ to hear.

This is obviously not the only effect, not by a long shot, but is that what you mean by “inertia?"