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Offline First – A Better HTML5 User Experience

joelambert.co.uk

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Re: Offline First – A Better HTML5 User Experience

#91

Post by izacus »

Senji wrote: post #77
GrinningFool wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gtk Qt The list is actually quite extensive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_platform-independent_G... -- For mobile, clean separations also helps. It is definitely possible - and less complex than you'd expect - to have core functionality in a shared library, wired up to platform-specific native GUI toolkits. But your question illustrates the problem. The pervasive presence of toolkits that add layer upon laye…

Have fun trying to convince people to download and run your app.

We (and several richest largest companies in the world which became that due to their native offline software) have no problems doing so.

Re: Offline First – A Better HTML5 User Experience

#92

Post by izacus »

Klathmon wrote: post #83
CorvusCrypto wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes. There can be a lot of boilerplate code present, however in terms of speed, using Qt for instance, can be much faster still than a web application that accomplishes the same task even if you get a huge binary after compilation. Oh and as Nadya said, sometimes this generalization causes issues. Engineering is a game of trade-offs I think :P.

What's the speed of the install process for those apps? How's the update system work? How quickly can you release them to all platforms? Can they be easily customized and modified by the user? Can they be easily shared? What's the permissions model like? How much can that application access?

Same way as that worked since 1980ties for all millions of home PC users.

Re: Offline First – A Better HTML5 User Experience

#93

Post by ksk »

mbrock wrote: post #86
ksk wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as we're trending towards web-apps having native apps' functionality then that distinction will soon be meaningless. Native apps are already sandboxed in various ways. Process integrity levels, VM protection, low privileged execution, call gating, ACLs, MAC, etc etc. All these technologies already exist and are already being used in various ways. Any systems level programmer should already be aware of those.…

Unless you're running a very unusual OS setup, any native app by default has read and write access to all of your files without asking. I feel pretty comfortable assuming that www.randomwebapp.com isn't reading and uploading my ~/.ssh and ~/.gpg, otherwise I'd be terrified of using the web at all.

>Unless you're running a very unusual OS setup, any native app by default has read and write access to all of your files without asking.

That's partially true. By default, it cannot access any system files, or change any system settings without admin privileges. Admin access is also required to authorize a firewall exception if it wants to use the network. And you have the choice to arbitrarily restrict a software's read/write access to locations of your choosing. You might call that unusual, but such restrictions are common in managed environments.

>I feel pretty comfortable assuming that www.randomwebapp.com isn't reading and uploading my ~/.ssh and ~/.gpg, otherwise I'd be terrified of using the web at all.

Your comfort is misplaced. There are FAR more browser vulnerabilities (including chrome, firefox) allowing code execution than there are OS kernel and CPU vulnerabilities allowing you to break out of the native apps' sandbox.

Re: Offline First – A Better HTML5 User Experience

#94

Post by swsieber »

GrinningFool wrote: post #21
ciconia wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you need to build cross-platform apps - and that is mostly the case nowadays - the web is actually not such a bad solution. I mean, what is the alternative?

Gtk Qt The list is actually quite extensive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_platform-independent_G... -- For mobile, clean separations also helps. It is definitely possible - and less complex than you'd expect - to have core functionality in a shared library, wired up to platform-specific native GUI toolkits. But your question illustrates the problem. The pervasive presence of toolkits that add layer upon laye…

For games specifically, there's Unity or Haxe.

Re: Offline First – A Better HTML5 User Experience

#95

Post by mbrock »

ksk wrote: post #93
mbrock wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you're running a very unusual OS setup, any native app by default has read and write access to all of your files without asking. I feel pretty comfortable assuming that www.randomwebapp.com isn't reading and uploading my ~/.ssh and ~/.gpg, otherwise I'd be terrified of using the web at all.

>Unless you're running a very unusual OS setup, any native app by default has read and write access to all of your files without asking. That's partially true. By default, it cannot access any system files, or change any system settings without admin privileges. Admin access is also required to authorize a firewall exception if it wants to use the network. And you have the choice to arbitrarily restrict a software's…

Wait, what native app sandbox are you talking about? Any executable I run has access to my files, and that's how it works on every OS I've ever used.

I am too trusting of browser security though, you're right about that...

Re: Offline First – A Better HTML5 User Experience

#96

Post by ebbv »

Dude, I get it. Stop being so condescending. Maybe you're trying to be helpful by including those links but it comes off as incredibly insulting and pedantic.

I was talking about a real-time communication application.

You can make the argument that the application should try to cope with a sporadic connection, but in the real world this is inefficient for both the user and the staff if the connection is going in and out and they are trying to hold a conversation it might be better to show the user a message that says hey your connection is down try later when you have a better connection or try an asynchronous support method like submitting a ticket.

Regardless that was just an example off the top of my head. My point still stands; web applications are web applications for a reason, and "offline first" doesn't make sense for most of them.

Re: Offline First – A Better HTML5 User Experience

#97

Post by mbrock »

ebbv wrote: post #96

Dude, I get it. Stop being so condescending. Maybe you're trying to be helpful by including those links but it comes off as incredibly insulting and pedantic. I was talking about a real-time communication application. You can make the argument that the application should try to cope with a sporadic connection, but in the real world this is inefficient for both the user and the staff if the connection is going in and…

I disagree and I explained why. Telling me what the "real world" is like is the same condescension you complain about.

If a couple of links to articles is "incredibly insulting" to you then you shouldn't discuss stuff on the internet.

Re: Offline First – A Better HTML5 User Experience

#98

Post by ebbv »

mbrock wrote: post #97
ebbv wrote: post #96

Dude, I get it. Stop being so condescending. Maybe you're trying to be helpful by including those links but it comes off as incredibly insulting and pedantic. I was talking about a real-time communication application. You can make the argument that the application should try to cope with a sporadic connection, but in the real world this is inefficient for both the user and the staff if the connection is going in and…

I disagree and I explained why. Telling me what the "real world" is like is the same condescension you complain about. If a couple of links to articles is "incredibly insulting" to you then you shouldn't discuss stuff on the internet.

Your example indicates you don't get it. You mention responses "from yesterday". That's not going to fly in an application that's real time that requires staff to keep the conversation open. You're describing a ticket system, I'm describing a live chat system.

I said "in the real world" as opposed to abstract talking about an application; in the real world a staff member would be stuck waiting for the response from this user where you're trying to keep the conversation going despite their sporadic connection. I guess I could have said "in meatspace" or something.

Links to explanations of the topic being discussed is of course incredibly insulting. Come on.

Anyway, whatever man. You are not pleasant to talk to so I'm done.

Re: Offline First – A Better HTML5 User Experience

#99

Post by Nadya »

Klathmon wrote: post #83
CorvusCrypto wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes. There can be a lot of boilerplate code present, however in terms of speed, using Qt for instance, can be much faster still than a web application that accomplishes the same task even if you get a huge binary after compilation. Oh and as Nadya said, sometimes this generalization causes issues. Engineering is a game of trade-offs I think :P.

What's the speed of the install process for those apps? How's the update system work? How quickly can you release them to all platforms? Can they be easily customized and modified by the user? Can they be easily shared? What's the permissions model like? How much can that application access?

Can it interop with other applications? eg. can output be piped from another program?

Will it still be around to use if the company goes bankrupt?

Can settings be backed up at all?

Can I even restore settings from a backup?

Can I easily share these settings?

Is there a way to carry it on a thumb drive so that in the event I find myself without internet for a first install/use - I can still use it?

How much control do I have over any data used/stored by the application?

Re: Offline First – A Better HTML5 User Experience

#100

Post by mbrock »

ebbv wrote: post #98
mbrock wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree and I explained why. Telling me what the "real world" is like is the same condescension you complain about. If a couple of links to articles is "incredibly insulting" to you then you shouldn't discuss stuff on the internet.

Your example indicates you don't get it. You mention responses "from yesterday". That's not going to fly in an application that's real time that requires staff to keep the conversation open. You're describing a ticket system, I'm describing a live chat system. I said "in the real world" as opposed to abstract talking about an application; in the real world a staff member would be stuck waiting for the response from t…

In the real world, network links go down all the time, even if just for three seconds.

As for etiquette... I politely explained how I see things different from you and provided a couple of links for reference. You immediately called me "condescending", "incredibly insulting", and "pedantic".

If you want a pleasant conversation, that's not the way to do it...

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