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The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

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Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#191

Post by yedava »

BigJeffeRonaldo wrote: post #157

And this is why Trump's win was so confusing for many citizens if the US--too stuck in their bubble to understand the rest of the world and its happenings. See also Nassim Taleb's essay on the Intellectual Yet Idiot class: https://medium.com/@nntaleb/the-intellectual-yet-idiot-13211...

The alleged confusion presumes that only elites voted for Democrats. But if you look at the voting trends, urban areas tend to vote Democrat and it is a far stretch to presume that there is no working class living in urban areas. In fact I'd wager there are far more working class people living in urban areas than in rural areas.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#192

Post by Mz »

gravypod wrote: post #168
jseliger wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The remarks here on HN dissing this article piqued my curiosity The other day I read a comment observing that commenters here have an almost Pavlovian response that compels them to disagree with the article. That seems right to me. A while ago I wrote this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12300542 , which touches on similar themes.

I'd rather see remarks disagreeing rather then bobbing heads at every topic.

Meaty discussion is not really served by either approach.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#193

Post by Buge »

jghn wrote: post #149
argonaut wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to Berkeley for CS and knew people that went to MIT and Stanford, and I don't agree. You're right the curriculum is the same. Everything else is different. Just one example: lots of undergrads do research. They get to work (albeit basically as trainees) in some of the top CS labs in the world.

I've long espoused what jondubois says above and many people have told me what you say here in response. That might be true but now that I'm in a position to see lots of new hires it doesn't seem to make a difference, at least not for CS grads. We hire a bunch of MIT grads and they seem to have roughly the same distribution of success as all of the other new hires. I'll grant you that this is anecdata but it is the o…

It might depend on what you are hiring them for. If it's for research the elites might do better. But if it's for software engineering there might not be a difference.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#194

Post by lmm »

Mz wrote: post #189
lmm wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any school will have a culture. Those that pride themselves on diversity tend to have one narrow kind of variety, and extreme monoculture on other axes - or else have a bunch of subcultural groups that don't really talk to each other. There's a kind of fundamental conservation: for people to be able to communicate and work together requires a certain level of cultural commonality. So whichever school you went to, you…

One criticism the article makes is that people with elite educations are expected to be leaders of the entire country (or community or other group), yet they often do not understand the common man at all. I think this is both valid and note worthy. It goes a long way towards explaining the discontent of "the 99 percent." Rules made by elite are often rules made for the benefit of the elite as well. They often complet…

I think the idea that there's this homogenous "common man" is bogus. If you pick your leaders from 1% of the population then they won't represent everyone - but that's true whichever 1% of the population you pick, and leaders by definition are a minority of the populace. If you picked, say, the employees of a particular steelworks to be leaders, rather than Yale graduates, you wouldn't end up with a group that was any more representative.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#195

Post by Mz »

lmm wrote: post #194
Mz wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One criticism the article makes is that people with elite educations are expected to be leaders of the entire country (or community or other group), yet they often do not understand the common man at all. I think this is both valid and note worthy. It goes a long way towards explaining the discontent of "the 99 percent." Rules made by elite are often rules made for the benefit of the elite as well. They often complet…

I think the idea that there's this homogenous "common man" is bogus. If you pick your leaders from 1% of the population then they won't represent everyone - but that's true whichever 1% of the population you pick, and leaders by definition are a minority of the populace. If you picked, say, the employees of a particular steelworks to be leaders, rather than Yale graduates, you wouldn't end up with a group that was an…

My concern is for how power gets exercised in a harmful manner such that it actively victimizes the most vulnerable members of society. As a mother, this is the opposite of what I understood my role to be.

I don't care about diversity in leadership. I care about leadership that doesn't flush the whole system down the toilet so thoroughly as to cut even their own throats in the process.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#197

Post by AnimalMuppet »

killersmalls wrote: post #173

"Yet the opportunity not to be rich is one of the greatest opportunities with which young Americans have been blessed." Might just be one of the most entitled statements I've ever read.

  I used to dream of being a rich man
  Yeah, I swore I'd have it all some day
  Once you taste it you will find
  That it isn't worth a dime
  'Till you're free enough to give it away
  - Randy Stonehill

  He who cannot cast away a treasure at need is in fetters.
  - J. R. R. Tolkein
You have a valid point that, for the less well off, hearing rich people whine about how hard it is to be rich is really grating. But there is also the flip side - wealth really can make you a slave to your money.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#198

Post by elcritch »

throwawayblues wrote: post #153
Mz wrote: post #11

The remarks here on HN dissing this article piqued my curiosity, so I began to read the article. It's been a long ..year...and I am super tired, so I am not going to manage to actually read the whole thing. But, I was one of the top three students of my graduating high school class and I turned down a National Merit Scholarship to one of the top two universities of my home state. I think I made the right call and I t…

I studied engineering at Cornell. We had a diverse student body, and this article is just one person's experience. For me, I had a great conversation with my plumber. Clever trick: he stores the snaker in an old tire so he can just roll it around. For my business, the advantage is initial credibility to customers, but there's so much work beyond that. The software has to be useful, the sales process has to be navigat…

I've had several friends study at Cornell, undergrad and grad level. They all have seemed to be pretty open and approachable. Based on personal anecdotes it'd seem Cornell is one of the better Ivy Leagues for not completely falling into the mentality mentioned in the article. Good to hear there are more sensible Ivy League engineering folks, much less just engineering folks, who can have a conversation with a non-tech person.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#199

Post by kurthr »

Mz wrote: post #11

The remarks here on HN dissing this article piqued my curiosity, so I began to read the article. It's been a long ..year...and I am super tired, so I am not going to manage to actually read the whole thing. But, I was one of the top three students of my graduating high school class and I turned down a National Merit Scholarship to one of the top two universities of my home state. I think I made the right call and I t…

It seems like the real problem is: For people who go to Ivy League schools, most of them can only imagine rabidly pursuing the next rung on the career ladder

The key to me, is that they have a choice then and have choices later in life... you can learn to be not_rich=middle_class at a lot of different times in your life. Many of them will make you unhappy.

Perhaps it's a bit worse going to an Ivy League where everyone else is the same, but you could say that about staying in the same state, or joining the military (which has many different people, but an enforced culture).

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#200

Post by edblarney »

pc86 wrote: post #162
edblarney wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That you can trace your lineage, does not mean you are 'upper class'. But 'upper class' people can usually trace their lineage quite far back. Everybody in the upper class definitely knows they are in the upper class. It's not a 'revelation' you get when you are an adult. Likely quite a few people think they are in the upper class and really are not. I'm going by classical definition here, not the 'new world' America…

> I'm going by classical definition here, not the 'new world' American version of upper class, which is usually just economic. That's not the definition used by the person you're replying to, so I'm not sure what your point is.

"That's not the definition used by the person you're replying to, so I'm not sure what your point is."

There is only one classical definition of upper class, the other is the very generic 'economic' version.

The commenter is clearly not referring to 'economic' upper classes as he referred to 'behaviours' 'social standing' 'expectations' etc..

He indicated his family once had a noble title but sold it - this is definitely the classical version of 'upper class'.

You want a 'pop culture' reference for actual 'upper class' (though it's 100 years ago) -> Downton Abbey.

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