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Why Are Medical Ultrasound Systems So Inexpensive?

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Re: Why Are Medical Ultrasound Systems So Inexpensive?

#11

Post by mping »

blackguardx wrote: post #6
franciscop wrote: post #2

This kind of description can be made of any hardware piece. We came from a whole room, slow computer to an iPhone that can make billions of operations per second. I see the previous post as complaining about this not happening on the industry. Of course making an iPhone (or a OnePlus phone if you want to get into low-scale) is not easy, but the technology has advanced and standardized enough to be considered "cheap"…

I'm a hardware engineer and might be able to explain a bit. Industrial electronics doesn't seem to move at the same pace as consumer electronics from the outside, but there often is incredible progress at the same pace and perhaps faster than the consumer segments. It is often hard to discern to the outsider, because they lack domain knowledge to recognize these advancements. On top of this, in certain fields, costs…

For me its the same as pharma. Can you tell me if a government (ex India) would like to devote resources to make cheaper ultrassounds they wouldn't be able to? I only buy non-technical arguments, unless the bill of materials is on the same order as the price of the equipment.

Re: Why Are Medical Ultrasound Systems So Inexpensive?

#12

Post by pulse7 »

legulere wrote: post #10

> If you can really build an effective ultrasound system that people want to buy for significantly less than the currently available price when you've no expertise in the field, then why hasn't someone else with vast experience in the field gone and done exactly that? If you just made a new effective ultrasound system that passes the FDA, why would you sell it for a lower price when you also can make more money?

You would sell it for a lower price to gain more customers than competition.

Re: Why Are Medical Ultrasound Systems So Inexpensive?

#14

Post by DanielBMarkham »

This was good. It's good to be reminded of the complexity of things we might overlook.

However the answer to any question around why something is expensive or not is economics, specifically supply and demand, marketing and distribution channels, and barriers to entry.

This is the technology sector. We have made a cottage industry out of taking things that used to be at the maximum level of complexity and turning them into household items. You could write a similar article about how web servers work -- there's an amazing amount of complexity in there, but we've commoditized all of it. Ultrasound tech will follow the same trajectory, although I have no idea how long that will take. In addition, ultrasound providers are marketing towards large, rich, healtchare providers who are operating in a tightly-regulated market. If I had a $1,000 ultrasound that only worked for a year, was quirky, might scald me or my patient, but was good for quick diangoses in the field in third-world countries? It might be all I would need. There is no universal "ultrasound" device that has to meet a ton of specs. That's just the way the market is configured currently.

Good article. Lots of cool stuff in there.

Re: Why Are Medical Ultrasound Systems So Inexpensive?

#15

Post by JPLeRouzic »

guitarbill wrote: post #8
JPLeRouzic wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* Several IC makers are selling integrated devices (TI, Analog, Maxim), for example at TI: LM96530 (Beamformer), LM96511 (VGA/LNA) and LM96570 (TR Switch). Those are eight channels ICs, they cost $200 together. There are ICs for 16 or even 64 channels. * Another claim is the need for a huge number of piezos, this probably a view from a remote past: With adequate coding and enough channels to enable beamforming, there…

e.g. the LM96530 is lifebuy, so it's basically discontinued. LM96511 & LM96570: not recommended for new design. In other words, those ICs are basically obsolete.

Thanks for pointing out right to the important thing: Those ICs are not new, they are on the market since some years.

Re: Why Are Medical Ultrasound Systems So Inexpensive?

#16

Post by DanBC »

legulere wrote: post #10

> If you can really build an effective ultrasound system that people want to buy for significantly less than the currently available price when you've no expertise in the field, then why hasn't someone else with vast experience in the field gone and done exactly that? If you just made a new effective ultrasound system that passes the FDA, why would you sell it for a lower price when you also can make more money?

> If you just made a new effective ultrasound system that passes the FDA, why would you sell it for a lower price when you also can make more money?

Because you have an ideological desire to make ultrasound available in the developing world.

EDIT: There are a number of large, wealthy, organisations that have this desire - to improve the quality and availability of medical stuff in the developing world.

They have enough clout (and money) to bring a cheaper device in.

Re: Why Are Medical Ultrasound Systems So Inexpensive?

#17

Post by BronSteeDiam »

pulse7 wrote: post #12
legulere wrote: post #10

> If you can really build an effective ultrasound system that people want to buy for significantly less than the currently available price when you've no expertise in the field, then why hasn't someone else with vast experience in the field gone and done exactly that? If you just made a new effective ultrasound system that passes the FDA, why would you sell it for a lower price when you also can make more money?

You would sell it for a lower price to gain more customers than competition.

You're assuming the existing customers are price sensitive.

Re: Why Are Medical Ultrasound Systems So Inexpensive?

#18

Post by bayesian_horse »

pulse7 wrote: post #12
legulere wrote: post #10

> If you can really build an effective ultrasound system that people want to buy for significantly less than the currently available price when you've no expertise in the field, then why hasn't someone else with vast experience in the field gone and done exactly that? If you just made a new effective ultrasound system that passes the FDA, why would you sell it for a lower price when you also can make more money?

You would sell it for a lower price to gain more customers than competition.

Not necessarily. There is a certain optimal point of price and demand. It's entirely possible that the limited supply due to all the barriers to entry allows even a range of competitors to price their products well above their own costs or the minimal costs in their industry.

It's just not true that multiple competitors have to collude to keep prices well above the perceived minimum costs. Or that collusion is a conscious process, either.

Re: Why Are Medical Ultrasound Systems So Inexpensive?

#19

Post by bayesian_horse »

mping wrote: post #11
blackguardx wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a hardware engineer and might be able to explain a bit. Industrial electronics doesn't seem to move at the same pace as consumer electronics from the outside, but there often is incredible progress at the same pace and perhaps faster than the consumer segments. It is often hard to discern to the outsider, because they lack domain knowledge to recognize these advancements. On top of this, in certain fields, costs…

For me its the same as pharma. Can you tell me if a government (ex India) would like to devote resources to make cheaper ultrassounds they wouldn't be able to? I only buy non-technical arguments, unless the bill of materials is on the same order as the price of the equipment.

With pharma I think the main "cost" involved is about the risk of investment. It takes billions of Dollars to potentially make billions of Dollars from a single product. More likely you invest hundreds of millions of Dollars with no return at all.

It takes a special kind of company, almost a bank, to stomach that kind of risk. And this extraordinary risk also demands extraordinary rewards.

Medical technology isn't really the same thing.

Re: Why Are Medical Ultrasound Systems So Inexpensive?

#20

Post by nhebb »

In case anyone is interested, there are low cost (< $10k) portable diagnostic ultrasound machines. I used to work for a company that made interconnects for medical devices, including ultrasound cables. Sonosite was developing their portable systems back then - 15 years ago - so low cost systems aren't something completely new. They don't have the same capabilities of full ultrasound systems, but they do fit the needs that some people are discussing here.
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