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The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

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Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#121

Post by dmichulke »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #107
wyager wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a shame to waste an elite education on people who do not serve society. Have you considered that you may not be as good as you think at predicting the needs of society? Based on past experiments, it seems that the market does a pretty good job of predicting what society actually wants and needs, whereas enlightened do-gooders aren't as good as they think. The upside is that there is lots of cheap soviet surplu…

> Based on past experiments, it seems that the market does a pretty good job of predicting what society actually wants and needs, whereas enlightened do-gooders aren't as good as they think. I would love to see those studies! I'm struggling to imagine how you'd even find a random sample of do-gooders, let alone measure their effect on their communities.

A good proxy is market demand. If Apple releases an iPhone and 1bn people buy it they served the needs of at least 1bn people.

Of course, a whole lot of poor people (probably the other 5/6 bn) won't be affected immediately but some years later they also start benefitting and today it's almost a (used) 100$ laptop per child equivalent (except for the poorest).

You can argue the same way about mpesa, bitcoin and other innovations/products.

Do charities have a similarly fantastic metric?

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#122

Post by polotics »

kalid wrote: post #78

Much of this resonated with me. One of the biggest lessons of my Ivy-league education was, paradoxically, that it wasn't sufficient (or even necessary). At least not for the goals I wanted. If you want access to the elite Wall St. or consulting jobs, then yes, you need it. Once you're in, it's almost impossible to be kicked out. Finish, interview, and you're on the path. But I had longstanding doubts about the state…

A very strange use for the word "interest" in there. Any reason why?

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#123

Post by eitally »

lgessler wrote: post #51

TL;DR: Going to an elite school 1. denies you the opportunity to empathize with anyone beyond a narrow spectrum of socioeconomics and culture 2. anoints you with a sense of self-worth and entitlement that is, if earned at all, only founded on a narrow set of skills: analytic ability and hard work 3. admits you into the class of seductive "entitled mediocrity", which allows you to fail spectacularly with essentially n…

I find this list (and the article in general) hilarious. Prefacing this with the disclaimer that the entire premise depends on how you define "elite", there are plenty of well-grounded, socially competent, altruistic young people attending elite universities, who go on to perform all sorts of contributive work. I find it odd that such an accomplished person would think it's ok to author a public piece about what seem to obviously be their own shortcomings.

Yes, perhaps some groups within some universities do contain individuals with certain proclivities that lead to cause certain behaviors that lead to certain outcomes, but not all!

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#124

Post by eitally »

egocodedinsol wrote: post #34

Before this gets flagged to oblivion, I have one criticism and two defenses of the article. As a criticism, this article doesn't address the sciences. The availability of research money is a major reason to go to an elite science institution. If you want to do science, the best thing is to do it, and that usually means email a lab and asking to work there. More labs with more money probably means better opportunities…

The issue I have with the sciences is that most of those best-in-field professors are really best-in-field at research, not instruction, so if you want to get the best science instruction you don't necessarily go to their schools. I know that, for example, my wife received a better, more personalized education at her small women's liberal arts school than I received at my largish, elite-ish university where most of my courses were taught by TAs as I sat next to hundreds of clones of myself. My wife regularly had classes with 10-20 people (sometimes fewer), and professors who were there because they loved teaching.

Totally different type of education, but the ultimate outcomes were roughly equivalent. We both went on to grad school (at top state universities) and both have done very well in our careers -- me in tech, her in pharma.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#125

Post by ken47 »

As someone who went to an "elite" institution, I wonder why all education can't be elite. In the past, there were physical limitations -- only so many students could fit in a lecture hall, on a campus etc. So the optimal arrangement at the time was to try to match the highest-potential students with the most qualified educators -- a system that could be gamed, requires imperfect approximations, but the best that was available at the time.

Now, with today's technology, the best educators in the world can become accessible, on a read-only basis, to anyone. This is what we're starting to see, with the biggest brand-name universities exploring how to monetize such a system via MOOC's. When MOOC's mature, a lot of today's university admissions rituals will no longer make sense.

Take SATs for example -- a high school-agnostic measure of a student's capabilities. If instead, there were a standardized set of MOOC's, whose grading systems were trustworthy, then instead of approximating a student's ability to learn new material via a general standardized test, the course material itself is standardized, so SATs become redundant.

I can't wait to see where MOOC's go in the coming years, and "elite" education earn its name through means other than its exclusivity.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#126

Post by scarmig »

ken47 wrote: post #125

As someone who went to an "elite" institution, I wonder why all education can't be elite. In the past, there were physical limitations -- only so many students could fit in a lecture hall, on a campus etc. So the optimal arrangement at the time was to try to match the highest-potential students with the most qualified educators -- a system that could be gamed, requires imperfect approximations, but the best that was…

Elite isn't about the quality of the instruction. Elite is about who is instructed. By definition, you can't have a broad-based, democratic elite.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#127

Post by jayd16 »

phamilton wrote: post #47
nimchimpsky wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the ability "to not be rich" is, in fact, a choice" Yeah but thats a choice, whereas being poor is enforced. Thats why an elite education is an advantage. The article is horrible self indulgent drivel ... "you incapable of talking to people who aren’t like you". They think going to a shitty school teaches you how to talk to everyone?

> a choice not psychologically available I feel like you missed his argument by about 3 words.

Its a difference between possibly not seeing a choice and not having a choice.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#128

Post by Klockan »

jayd16 wrote: post #127
phamilton wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a choice not psychologically available I feel like you missed his argument by about 3 words.

Its a difference between possibly not seeing a choice and not having a choice.

Not psychologically.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#129

Post by Glyptodon »

akiselev wrote: post #22
peteretep wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are missing: in order to gain access to these institutions, many people apparently have to forgoe those extracurriculars and focus only on their studies.

No, to gain access to these institutions you are basically required to have half a dozen extracurriculars on your resume. They receive applications from so many white straight-A/4.0 students that extracurriculars are the only differentiating factor. Few high schools (in California, at least) would even let you graduate without 50-100 hours of community service. Whether these extracurriculars would expose you to diffe…

I've always found it bizarre that people respond to an admissions system intended to reward the acceptibly unique by being the same as each other.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#130

Post by atmosx »

jayd16 wrote: post #127
phamilton wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a choice not psychologically available I feel like you missed his argument by about 3 words.

Its a difference between possibly not seeing a choice and not having a choice.

No it is not different, it is the same thing IMO.
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