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The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

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Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#71

Post by yummyfajitas »

smallnamespace wrote: post #58
yummyfajitas wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's entertaining how far we in the states go in denying we have classes. Some years back a blogger tried to cook up a taxonomy of our class system. Since we don't have words to describe them he adopted archaic Indian terms instead. Brahmins are the NY/CA elite, Vaisyas are the Trump voting worker caste, etc. https://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/05/castes... Other writers have recognized and described i…

The fear of recognizing a caste system is that once you use words to describe something, the words themselves become a tool to reinforce and then codify that system. I mean, India itself seems to be a prototypical example of that.

Is it? The caste system is mostly defunct. In my experience (admittedly, as an outsider who lives in mostly elite circles) there is actually a more significant caste-like system, but much like in the states there are no real words to describe it.

The best explanation I've seen of it is Chetan Bhaget's novel Half Girlfriend: http://amzn.to/2im0Cxq It's a masala romance novel, blah, but it's the only real discussion of the issue that I've seen.

He's also written a few newspaper columns on it: http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/The-underage-optimi... http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/The-underage-optimi...

Very few people can even discuss these subtle, un-named caste systems, let alone argue against them. I can't stand Chetan Bhaget, yet I link to him anyway simply because he's really one of the very few who actually discuss it. Consider how difficult it is to even discuss Trump's victory in these terms as well.

I think that the best protection the caste system has is that we refuse to even give it a word.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#72

Post by gragas »

chiaro wrote: post #65

It's funny. When I first read this article it must have left a strong impression for me to have recalled it now, in the wake of the election. I see someone else felt similarly. I also remember a HN comment on it saying the blame for writer's inability to communicate across the class divide was more likely a profound lack of social skills. A point of view I'm still not entirely sure I agree or disagree with.

> in the wake of the election. I see someone else felt similarly.

I think that's exactly why everyone is on about "liberal hubris."

It's because people like you who are so self-absorbed that you write articles about how you're too educated to talk to plumbers and how you sympathize with others who feel the same way.

When you discount everyone who disagrees with you for being "uneducated" and gullible, it doesn't seem at all unreasonable to me that many would accuse you overwhelming hubris.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#73

Post by dlo »

CardenB wrote: post #67
dlo wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to Stanford, and I disagree. Sure, there are exceptions, but most fellow alumni I know are very boring. For example, many live in San Francisco, work for Facebook or Google, and do little of note besides the following: - have an "interesting" hobby - work out at the gym - hang out with friends at the bar or club - work on their career - start a "start-up" - travel - ... other very self-serving pursuits Most re…

What's wrong or boring about any of the things you mentioned? What would you do differently?

There's a lot of human trafficking in Oakland, a short BART ride away from SF. With so much problem-solving ability in nearby SF, why is this still a problem?

So are homelessness, childhood hunger, etc

And why do we crowd around in the Bay Area, pushing out artists and other people? Why don't we spread out across the U.S., spreading ideas and doing good?

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#74

Post by [deleted] »

akiselev wrote: post #22
peteretep wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are missing: in order to gain access to these institutions, many people apparently have to forgoe those extracurriculars and focus only on their studies.

No, to gain access to these institutions you are basically required to have half a dozen extracurriculars on your resume. They receive applications from so many white straight-A/4.0 students that extracurriculars are the only differentiating factor. Few high schools (in California, at least) would even let you graduate without 50-100 hours of community service. Whether these extracurriculars would expose you to diffe…

[deleted]

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#75

Post by gnicholas »

Mz wrote: post #19
feedjoelpie wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a stupid reply that has nothing to do with the topic: I had the NMS myself, and I'm assuming some college was going to give you an extra kicker since it's portable. Do you mind sharing which colleges? I'm weirdly curious because while I didn't go to an known elite school, I turned down a full ride to an out-of-state state school (for NMS winners) to go to a private school. So like, kind of the opposite of you…

As far as I know, my scholarship was not portable. It was specifically for one university and when I failed to attend, no, I did not get to keep my scholarship. No one gave me an extra kicker. I turned my scholarship down for personal reasons, not because I was bought out by some competing school.

At the time when I was in the NMS pipeline, if you listed a school that you wanted to attend when you took the PSAT/NMSQT, that school would give you the scholarship if you became a finalist. The best idea was to say "undecided" and to maintain the ability to designate any school once committed.

My older brother learned this the hard way—he listed a school (October of junior year) that he decided (April of senior year) not to attend. He lost the $8k in scholarship money that he could have gotten from the school he attended—which he could have gotten had he responded "undecided".

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#77

Post by nickonline »

gragas wrote: post #66
dlo wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to Stanford, and I disagree. Sure, there are exceptions, but most fellow alumni I know are very boring. For example, many live in San Francisco, work for Facebook or Google, and do little of note besides the following: - have an "interesting" hobby - work out at the gym - hang out with friends at the bar or club - work on their career - start a "start-up" - travel - ... other very self-serving pursuits Most re…

I've always wondered what it'd be like to go to Stanford and then just end up at Facebook or Google, alongside many state-school graduates. Would it be a massive let down? Sure, you might have learned more at Stanford than at your peers' state schools, but you are only using as much of your education as your peers are using.

'just'?

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#78

Post by kalid »

Much of this resonated with me.

One of the biggest lessons of my Ivy-league education was, paradoxically, that it wasn't sufficient (or even necessary). At least not for the goals I wanted.

If you want access to the elite Wall St. or consulting jobs, then yes, you need it. Once you're in, it's almost impossible to be kicked out. Finish, interview, and you're on the path.

But I had longstanding doubts about the state of my actual education. Despite numerous engineering classes, I couldn't, for example, work out i^i in my head instantly.

Imagine someone asked you "Roughly, what do you think 2^512 to be?"

"I don't know exactly, but it's an enormous positive number, probably more than the atoms in the universe."

Ok. You should spit that out instantly. Now imagine someone asks "Roughly, what do you think i^i is?"

Is it positive? Negative? Real? Imaginary? Close to 1.0? Microscopic? Even if you eventually work it out after a minute, does your long delay mean you understood exponents or imaginary numbers? Is this something that should be solidified before, say, studying the Fourier Transform?

Despite scoring well in classes taught by famous professors, I couldn't answer such basic questions. This was literally middle school operations (exponents) used with high-school parameters (imaginary numbers). I was stuck -- and it didn't seem like anyone thought this a reasonable thing to understand.

It led me on a journey of self-education, but I needed to see firsthand that even in an Ivy-league environment, the basics could still be missed. It ended the fantasy that things were transformatively different in some other place -- it was up to me to fill the gaps.

ps. If you want to work out i^i in your head: https://betterexplained.com/articles/intuitive-understanding...

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#80

Post by cylinder »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #56
lgessler wrote: post #51

TL;DR: Going to an elite school 1. denies you the opportunity to empathize with anyone beyond a narrow spectrum of socioeconomics and culture 2. anoints you with a sense of self-worth and entitlement that is, if earned at all, only founded on a narrow set of skills: analytic ability and hard work 3. admits you into the class of seductive "entitled mediocrity", which allows you to fail spectacularly with essentially n…

Hm. I went to Stanford. Famous for diverse, risk-taking non-mediocre graduates. I guess its the exception that proves the rule?

Throwing away big chunks of your company for VC cash before you've done a lick of work is risk taking?
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