Live data from Hacker News

The Long-Term Jobs Killer Is Not China, It’s Automation

nytimes.com

61–70 of 247 posts

Re: The Long-Term Jobs Killer Is Not China, It’s Automation

#63
post #50
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the advantage of this over universal basic income funded by taxes?

People think taxes are evil but for dome reason will accept warlords?

The thing about warlords is you get to skip the 'acceptance' bit.

Re: The Long-Term Jobs Killer Is Not China, It’s Automation

#64
post #62
post #61

Does automation kill jobs in China?

Yes. http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-36376966

That's Foxconn, and they're just getting started with replacing workers. Foxconn has 1.3 million employees. Hon Hai CEO Terry Gou: "Hon Hai has a workforce of over one million worldwide and as human beings are also animals, to manage one million animals gives me a headache."

He means it. He brought in the director of the Tapei Zoo for advice on how to manage animals with different temperaments.

Re: The Long-Term Jobs Killer Is Not China, It’s Automation

#65
(I posted this on another thread this week where it was less relevant, so I'll just repost it here and see if anybody notices.)

Mass automation is undermining our democracy in a very specific way: it's acting as the ultimate "resource curse." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse

"Countries with an abundance of natural resources, specifically non-renewable resources like minerals and fuels, tend to have less economic growth, less democracy, and worse development outcomes than countries with fewer natural resources."

Scholars debate the causes of the resource curse, but one popular theory has to do with the way autocrats fund themselves relative to democracies.

Autocrats, it turns out, need a lot of wealth to pay their cronies. No dictator rules alone; they need someone to run the military, someone to collect the taxes, and someone to enforce the laws. Those people have to be paid, and handsomely, or they'll overthrow the dictator (or just allow the dictator to be overthrown). This is called "selectorate theory" and this video is a great introduction. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs

Oil wealth, specifically, undermines democracy because when autocrats have access to oil wealth, they don't need to depend on their citizens very much. (Indeed, many oil-rich autocratic countries just allow other countries to come in and drill it, keeping local labor entirely out of the loop.)

Resource-cursed autocracies tend to democratize when the oil wealth runs out and they need to rely on the people's productivity to deliver wealth to cronies. When autocrats are forced to allow people to educate themselves and communicate with one another, democracy ensues.

It can work the other way, too. In every democracy, there's a group of folks asking themselves a question: is now the time to try a coup, to replace democracy with an autocracy? As the value of capital increases and the value of human labor decreases, the advantages of staging a coup become more and more enticing.

For years we've thought of human labor as the "ultimate resource." But it turns out that human labor isn't the ultimate resource. Robot labor that's just as good if not better than human labor is a resource beyond any we've ever seen.

But that means that we're discovering/inventing the ultimate resource curse.

We might use automation to fund universal basic income, or a class of elites could use it to undermine "unnecessary" citizens (the "unnecessariat"), establishing a corporate fascism.

When the government depends on human productivity for our tax base, the government needs to keep us all well-educated and healthy. But soon, government won't depend on human labor.

"Is now the time?" they're asking. And, increasingly, the answer is "yes."

Re: The Long-Term Jobs Killer Is Not China, It’s Automation

#66

I think it's likely that automation will be a huge creator of jobs. And I'm not talking about creation of high skill jobs at the expense of destruction of low skill jobs. I'm talking about a net creation of both low and high skill jobs. Allow me to explain. Here's a youtube movie of some robots in a Mercedes factory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VreG1iC65Lc There are thousands of movies like that. Lots of robots do…

> Alas, the programming, maintenance, re-programming, upgrading, not to mention construction of the robots still needs a small army of people. If automation doesn't result in absolutely massive savings on employment, it just won't happen. You're army of people is more like a small platoon -- the army being entirely displaced. But I think there is something to be said about automation allowing for creation to become m…

Right. Kiva warehouse robots are a particularly striking example. Before Amazon bought Kiva, they gave out info about operating costs. All the little mobile robots are interchangeable, so if one fails, it's just sidelined. You have somebody on site to replace batteries and wheels; anything non-trivial goes back to the factory. The entire Kiva company, which was servicing about a dozen big Internet retailers before Amazon bought them, was 600 people. A single warehouse automated with Kiva loses at least half its staff.

Re: The Long-Term Jobs Killer Is Not China, It’s Automation

#67
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you familiar with potlatch society in the old Pacific Northwest? With wealth readily available, the "big men" of a tribe (roughly chiefs, but not hereditary) competed to see how much they could give away to their neighbors and rivals; all you had to do to eat well, or make it through a bad winter, was to admit that your neighbors were led by a great and glorious chief. This system didn't work very well at the tim…

Everyone could have his own small farm, fab and robots. No need to rely on "big men" competing for karma points from the peasants.

But the land is all owned already, and not by the people who's jobs are being replaced? And so far automation in farming is focused on large-scale operation, with much less good solutions for family -scale.

Re: The Long-Term Jobs Killer Is Not China, It’s Automation

#68
post #67
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone could have his own small farm, fab and robots. No need to rely on "big men" competing for karma points from the peasants.

But the land is all owned already, and not by the people who's jobs are being replaced? And so far automation in farming is focused on large-scale operation, with much less good solutions for family -scale.

Economies of scale have been the bread and butter of progress in the last 100 years, but we're entering the age of customization now. Adaptive technologies can work on small scale as well as on large scale. And large scale can still be achieved by coops that provide services for many people at once. People do have capital and resources, it's just spread and divided. What we need is to organize.

I give self-replicating factories a higher probability than AGI. We'll probably have a 100% automated stack that can replicate and repair itself, as well as produce everything we need, all based on locally sourced and plentiful materials, before we have human level AI. It will be a manufacturing singularity. We should bootstrap automation in itself, like we bootstrap compilers. Object production would become similar to compilation, from source code to material object. We'd have optimized material compilers.

When we have a replicator, anyone can have one. Industry would become like agriculture, if you have the initial seeds, you can plant and then you bootstrap your crop.

If you think about self replication, on the whole, industry is a self replicator right now. But we need to make it fully automated, reduce its minimal footprint and make it less reliant on rare materials. There is a need for sustainable, smart materials and open source automation and AI in order to save the population from disenfranchisement. Capital and the means of production should belong to all of us, not just the 1%.

Re: The Long-Term Jobs Killer Is Not China, It’s Automation

#69
post #59
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope we end up with something much closer to socialism than we do either the future from "The Time Machine" or perpetual cycles of Viva-La-Revolution.

Up until global trade took off, cities, villages and even individual farms were almost self sufficient. Why couldn't people be self sufficient with automation?

>Why couldn't people be self sufficient with automation?

Have you tried buying land recently without signing yourself into debt for the rest of your life to a bank? How did it go?

Not to mention that self sufficiency would imply a major cut in the standard of living for most people, for largely no good reason. It would be far more preferable just to reduce the concentration of capital in too few hands than for the rest of us to live like it's 1850 again.

Re: The Long-Term Jobs Killer Is Not China, It’s Automation

#70
It's about time for fruit picking to be automated. There are prototype systems, but they come from SRI International, not John Deere, and they're too fragile and too complicated mechanically. The vision system isn't the problem any more; that's simpler than a smartphone.

Once that works, California loses jobs about 2.1 million illegal immigrants.

Post reply on HN