Earlier quoted context omitted.
In that case anyone who lost a game of baccarat (or any card game) played with those type of cards at anytime in NJ has a case against the casino and could sue to get the money back because the contract was illegal. I wonder if those are standard cards used at the casino ... they do offer them as souvenirs so it seems like they might be. If they are used by the casino or other casinos for games, that's probably thous…
if you can prove, casino knows[1] that the cards are not symmetrical, yes. "knowingly to use or possess any marked cards"
Famed poker pro with ‘remarkable’ $9.6M scheme has to pay it back
51–60 of 213 posts
Re: Famed poker pro with ‘remarkable’ $9.6M scheme has to pay it back
#52As a game designer, I find casino "games" frustrating, because they are designed to not only mitigate skill, but also luck, in favor of the house. The fact that the casinos have roped in John Law to steal back their winnings after they were taken fair and square is especially galling. If they were grown-ups, they would take their beating, ban Ivey and Sun for life, and change their processes to avoid being beaten aga…
>As a game designer, I find casino "games" frustrating It's funny -- I'm as vulnerable as anyone else to a million addictive game mechanics that build on the same impulses that make gambling addictive. But actual real-life casino slot machines just don't work. I need to be like, evaluating the loot drop's fire resistance on a new helmet or whatever for it to be addictive. When you just push a button over and over aga…
Re: Famed poker pro with ‘remarkable’ $9.6M scheme has to pay it back
#53> reflecting the baccarat cash as well as $500,000 won using some of the winnings at craps This is the real wtf. Ivey could have easily used his own money to play craps, what does this have to do with ANYTHING?
I guess the logic is that if he lost $500k they wouldn't have asked for that back
That said, they agreed to the rules, they should eat the loss anyway. The government has no role in protecting businesses from their own stupidity.
Re: Famed poker pro with ‘remarkable’ $9.6M scheme has to pay it back
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the "fundamental purpose of legalized gambling" is for the house to always win. Is this controversial? I assumed everyone knew that the casinos have an edge on every game they spread?
No, casino's don't have an edge on blackjack, not when the player is able to count cards. Also slot machines can be profitable under certain conditions: when they have a jackpot which has gone up above a certain limit. Both these games are exploited by some professional gamblers.
If we're being technical, shuffling actually lowers the house edge a bit if you are not counting cards, but completely restores the edge if you are trying to count cards. This happens because for each hand of blackjack it is more likely that the last card played is a high card (you are more likely to draw again on a low card), so the remaining deck is slightly lower on high cards on average if you don't shuffle compared to shuffle, and high cards are good for the player, so not shuffling is better against non-counters, but a lot worse against counters.
They most definitely have an edge on slot machines. The fact that there are at times local maxima that favours the gambler doesn't impact the overall edge. This is the same as lotteries with a carry-over jackpot etc. The jackpot is paid for by other gamblers who played against really bad edges, not the casino.
Re: Famed poker pro with ‘remarkable’ $9.6M scheme has to pay it back
#55"Ivey and Sun adjusted the odds of Baccarat in their favor. This is in complete contravention of the fundamental purpose of legalized gambling" Note that, according to the judge, the "fundamental purpose of legalized gambling" is for the house to always win.
> the "fundamental purpose of legalized gambling" is for the house to always win. Is this controversial? I assumed everyone knew that the casinos have an edge on every game they spread?
Re: Famed poker pro with ‘remarkable’ $9.6M scheme has to pay it back
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
The article links to the Judge's opinion [0]. The referenced section is 5:12-115(a)(2) and (b): "a. It shall be unlawful: ... (2) Knowingly to deal, conduct, carry on, operate or expose for play any game or games played with cards, dice or any mechanical device, or any combination of games or devices, which have in any manner been marked or tampered with, or placed in a condition, or operated in a manner, the result…
Ok, let's get technical. The (a) part of that law is written for casinos, not players, as it refers to dealing and operating games. The requirement is that they do this knowingly. The casino didn't know. The operation of this game did not in any way deceive the public. No player was tricked. The operation of the game also did NOT alter the result of the game. The same side (banker/player) would have one irrespective…
This para seems to say that it applies to any person, including corporate persons.
Re: Famed poker pro with ‘remarkable’ $9.6M scheme has to pay it back
#57As a game designer, I find casino "games" frustrating, because they are designed to not only mitigate skill, but also luck, in favor of the house. The fact that the casinos have roped in John Law to steal back their winnings after they were taken fair and square is especially galling. If they were grown-ups, they would take their beating, ban Ivey and Sun for life, and change their processes to avoid being beaten aga…
Re: Famed poker pro with ‘remarkable’ $9.6M scheme has to pay it back
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
if you can prove, casino knows[1] that the cards are not symmetrical, yes. "knowingly to use or possess any marked cards"
Isn't the ruling above saying just that? Otherwise they're having their cake and eating it too. So which is it?
Re: Famed poker pro with ‘remarkable’ $9.6M scheme has to pay it back
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I don't know what part of the law it supposedly broke, but it seems like the judge believes that the player in the casino has a legal obligation to be a sucker. I went and had a go at the New Jersey Casino Control Act and I believe that the judge is saying that Ivey violated 5:12-114(2), which states: "It shall be unlawful for any person playing any licensed gambling game knowingly to use bogus or counterfeit chips…
The article links to the Judge's opinion [0]. The referenced section is 5:12-115(a)(2) and (b): "a. It shall be unlawful: ... (2) Knowingly to deal, conduct, carry on, operate or expose for play any game or games played with cards, dice or any mechanical device, or any combination of games or devices, which have in any manner been marked or tampered with, or placed in a condition, or operated in a manner, the result…
"The Court found that Ivey and Sun breached their contract with Borgata to play Baccarat in compliance with the CCA by violating N.J.S.A. 5:12-115(a)(2) and (b) when they knowingly engaged in a scheme to create a set of marked cards and then used those marked cards to place bets based on the markings."
That's the finding I disagree with, and seems to be the point that the entire judgment rests on.
Section 12 of the act [1] falls under "Sanctions", which to me is the first clue that this section is intended to apply to the casino, not the customer. I do concede that the wording "any person" would also include customers.
Let's take a look at 5:12-115(a)(2) and see if we can narrow down exactly what Ivey and Sun are supposed to have done here:
"It shall be unlawful...knowingly to deal, conduct, carry on, operate or expose for play any game or games played with cards, dice or any mechanical device, or any combination of games or devices, which have or tampered with, or placed in a condition, or operated in a manner, the result of which tends to deceive the public or tends to alter the normal random selection of characteristics or the normal chance of the game which could determine or alter the result of the game."
Well they certainly didn't deal, operate or expose the cards to play - the casino did that. There is an argument that without players, the game can't exist, so let's accept that both parties are responsible for "conducting" and "carrying on" the game.
The cards were weren't tampered with - they were imperfect, but is that the same as "marked"? I don't believe so, and I think the judges assertion that they are should be challenged on this. Regardless, "Placed in a condition, or operated in a manner" does seem like a reasonable way to describe the rotation of specific cards. The CCA makes no assumption or distinction about who places or operates them, so we don't need to get into whether it was the casino or the player who did this. It happened and that's enough.
Strip out the bits that Ivey/Sun can't possibly have done and we're left with this:
"It shall be unlawful...knowingly to conduct [or] carry on any game or games played with cards, which have in any manner been marked, or placed in a condition, or operated in a manner, the result of which tends to deceive the public or tends to alter the normal random selection of characteristics or the normal chance of the game which could determine or alter the result of the game."
So, to the result. The use of the words "tends to" means that it doesn't matter that it's a private room with no public to be deceived. The question the law asks as it applies to this case is:
Given that Baccarat has a predetermined result at the time of dealing (there is no option for either player or dealer to influence the cards which will be drawn in the course of the game - the only variable is the stake), does the act of rotating a card, without changing its position in the deck:
- tend to deceive the public? I don't see how it possibly can.
- OR tend to alter the normal random selection of cards? Certainly not.
- OR tend to alter the normal chance of the game which could determine or alter the result of the game? It can't alter the result. It can't determine the result - there are still three to five cards which are entirely chance. It DID alter the normal chance of the game in this case, but does it "tend to"? From the article: "Baccarat is a casino game well known for unique and superstitious rituals," Hillman noted in an October opinion. "Thus, Sun telling the dealer to turn a card in a certain way did not raise any red flags for Borgata." That suggests to me that it does not "tend to" affect the chance, which is the test required by the law.
On the argument above, I would suggest that Ivey and Sun were not in breach of 5:12-115(a)(2) at all. 5:12-115(b) simply says "It shall be unlawful knowingly to use or possess any marked cards, loaded dice, plugged or tampered with machines or devices." They didn't posess them, and I don't believe using the casino's standard cards, which meet the casino's own quality requirements, can be considered to be using "marked" cards. If they are, and the casino are still using the same cards, they're now knowingly in possession of marked cards themselves.
Then we get to 5:12-115(c):
"Any person who violates this section is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree and subject to the penalties therefor, except that the amount of a fine may be up to $50,000, and in the case of a person other than a natural person, the amount of a fine may up to $200,000."
The Golden Nugget case hinged on the point that the deck wasn't shuffled. Since the CCA requires random decks, it has no provision for games played with a non-random deck. The argument is that because the CCA made no provision for the game, it can't have been a legal game under the CCA, and therefore it should be void. This case is completely different - even if we accept that Ivey breached the CCA, the CCA already makes provision for such a breach, and specifies the appropriate remedy should it occur.
There's also the small point that the DGE has investigated the Golden Nugget case and concluded that there was no breach of the CCA [2] - while it may not be a court decision, it should have some weight.
It looks to me like the judge has this very wrong, and any lawyer worth his money should be able to deal with it on appeal.
[1] http://www.nj.gov/casinos/actreg/act/docs/cca-article09.pdf
[2] https://www.casino.org/news/golden-nugget-new-jersey-unshuff...
Re: Famed poker pro with ‘remarkable’ $9.6M scheme has to pay it back
#60I don't know the name of the trick but I learnt it as a child.