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Famed poker pro with ‘remarkable’ $9.6M scheme has to pay it back

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Re: Famed poker pro with ‘remarkable’ $9.6M scheme has to pay it back

#3
This seems like a ruling unlikely to stand up on appeal. This technique is akin to card counting, where skill is combined with luck to create a long term advantage.

I also think it should have been fairly obvious to the casino employees that some kind of advantage play was happening. Ivey is very well known as a poker player, and while he also is known as a gambler, arbitrary superstitions are outside of his character. The specificity of the conditions he asked for should have tipped his hand earlier than they did, but the casinos probably treated him like any other baccarat whale.

Hopefully this decision is reversed. I don't know what part of the law it supposedly broke, but it seems like the judge believes that the player in the casino has a legal obligation to be a sucker.

Re: Famed poker pro with ‘remarkable’ $9.6M scheme has to pay it back

#4
It's a very interesting game. I read once in "How I lost a million dollars", but never checked for myself, that publicly traded casinos list Baccarat on their SEC fillings as a possible way their earnings can be affected (both positively and negatively). In the book the author was with a wealthy client who gave him and his friend $10k to play with. They each won something like $8k each and proceeded to enjoy Las Vegas with it. (Numbers are fuzzy. Corrections are welcome.)

Re: Famed poker pro with ‘remarkable’ $9.6M scheme has to pay it back

#6
"Ivey and Sun adjusted the odds of Baccarat in their favor. This is in complete contravention of the fundamental purpose of legalized gambling"

Note that, according to the judge, the "fundamental purpose of legalized gambling" is for the house to always win.

Re: Famed poker pro with ‘remarkable’ $9.6M scheme has to pay it back

#7
The judge had a very odd interpretation of the contract and "maneuvered", it appears one sided to me.

" “By using cards they caused to be maneuvered in order to identify their value only to them,” the judge wrote, “Ivey and Sun adjusted the odds of Baccarat in their favor. This is in complete contravention of the fundamental purpose of legalized gambling as set forth by [New Jersey’s Casino Control Commission.] Ivey and Sun’s violation . . . constitutes a breach of their mutual obligation with Borgata to play by the rules” of the state’s law. "

That interpretation is equivalent to saying you can't do anything that improves the odds in your favor in any game. By this judge's reckoning, you have to just be a robot that sits passively and accepts all the hand exactly as dealt and not use any strategy to play the game to your advantage. That's fundamentally un-American if you ask me.

Re: Famed poker pro with ‘remarkable’ $9.6M scheme has to pay it back

#8
post #3

This seems like a ruling unlikely to stand up on appeal. This technique is akin to card counting, where skill is combined with luck to create a long term advantage. I also think it should have been fairly obvious to the casino employees that some kind of advantage play was happening. Ivey is very well known as a poker player, and while he also is known as a gambler, arbitrary superstitions are outside of his characte…

Card counting is negated by using more decks and not going past 60% or whatever of the shoe. Casinos know about card counting. This is different. They spotted marks on the back of the cards that gave away the value of the cards. If the casino knew about this they would not have used those cards. The judge ruled that both the casino and the player are obligated to play the game by the rules.

Re: Famed poker pro with ‘remarkable’ $9.6M scheme has to pay it back

#9
post #3

This seems like a ruling unlikely to stand up on appeal. This technique is akin to card counting, where skill is combined with luck to create a long term advantage. I also think it should have been fairly obvious to the casino employees that some kind of advantage play was happening. Ivey is very well known as a poker player, and while he also is known as a gambler, arbitrary superstitions are outside of his characte…

> I don't know what part of the law it supposedly broke, but it seems like the judge believes that the player in the casino has a legal obligation to be a sucker.

I went and had a go at the New Jersey Casino Control Act and I believe that the judge is saying that Ivey violated 5:12-114(2), which states: "It shall be unlawful for any person playing any licensed gambling game knowingly to use bogus or counterfeit chips or gaming billets, or knowingly to substitute and use in any such game cards or dice that have been marked, loaded or tampered with." (Internal punctuation omitted.)

He's not saying that Ivey had to just blithely take whatever happened; instead, I think the judge is making the argument that Ivey "rigged" the cards to function just like marked cards so they should be treated as such. He's not saying that Ivey committed a crime, just that the game was unlawful under the NJ CCA because the NJ CCA prohibits the use, by either party, of cards that seem to be marked. The law doesn't make a distinction as to who is using the cards or who did the marking, even if the marking is done by the manufacturer.

Link to law (it's a long one but I do not like link shorteners): http://lis.njleg.state.nj.us/cgi-bin/om_isapi.dll?clientID=5...

Re: Famed poker pro with ‘remarkable’ $9.6M scheme has to pay it back

#10
post #3

This seems like a ruling unlikely to stand up on appeal. This technique is akin to card counting, where skill is combined with luck to create a long term advantage. I also think it should have been fairly obvious to the casino employees that some kind of advantage play was happening. Ivey is very well known as a poker player, and while he also is known as a gambler, arbitrary superstitions are outside of his characte…

> I don't know what part of the law it supposedly broke, but it seems like the judge believes that the player in the casino has a legal obligation to be a sucker. I went and had a go at the New Jersey Casino Control Act and I believe that the judge is saying that Ivey violated 5:12-114(2), which states: "It shall be unlawful for any person playing any licensed gambling game knowingly to use bogus or counterfeit chips…

Ivey did not substitute. The casino did not knowingly. I'm not convinced this was violated.
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