Live data from Hacker News

Backpropagation is a leaky abstraction

medium.com

101–106 of 106 posts

Re: Backpropagation is a leaky abstraction

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty much the same as looking at a multiplication table on a request basis. Ironically, mere exposure to data is enouhg to learn from in ML, so why not here. Although, I'm not sure about the pedagogic aspect. I'd assume calculation by heart would be learned along the way, despite sending the initial message, it wasn't needed. Maybe starting slow is important, because it's that fundamental. But in hindsight, I…

> I have a similar anecdote: I wasn't good at handwriting and always claimed I wouldn't need to. Now I don't need to, indeed, except for exams. But I actually have a hard time with caligraphy and that's a shame. Your anecdote is irrelevant because there is no _understanding_ to be gained by handwriting as opposed to typing. I really can't be bothered with this conversation, sorry.

Writing is geometric and calculation is pretty much mechanic.

Re: Backpropagation is a leaky abstraction

#102
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the kind of response I was hoping for. Thanks Matt! If it's not an inconvenience, could you drop any links to the topics you referenced, especially the ones that differed from what I've been studying, to charles@geuis.com? I'm going a bit deeper now and reading some studies from the early 90's and some that are more recent. It's kind of a crapshoot of what I can google for, so a guided search would be…

Hmmm...it's hard to do entire fields justice, but here's an attempt. There are a couple of standard neurobiology textbooks, like Kandel, Jessel, and Schwartz's Principles of Neural Science , Purve et al.'s Neuroscience and Squire et al.'s Fundamental Neuroscience . These are huge books that cover a bit of everything, and you should know that they exist, but I wouldn't necessarily start there. If you're specifically i…

Great info. Definitely have plenty to read over the next couple weeks now.

Re: Backpropagation is a leaky abstraction

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "because you registered for this class." The Authoritative Argument is not very convincing when your good authority over the course material being challenged. Maybe there is some irony or deeper truth, lost on me. Are you perhaps a leaky abstraction? edit: > The "code reuse as much as possible" mantra applies to when ... ... you are able to reasonably compromise, got it.

> The Authoritative Argument is not very convincing Neither is a straw man argument. He wasn't making an argument from authority. He was essentially saying "because you are learning, not doing".

>essentially

No, implicitly and very subtly. The essence of the argument was the student in a voluntary class. The implications are manifold, but not stating the implications has a meaning on the meta level, that the students understanding is not expected, but the students expectation of an authoritative answer has to be satisfied anyway by stating the obvious to establish or retain authority.

Re: Backpropagation is a leaky abstraction

#104
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the kind of response I was hoping for. Thanks Matt! If it's not an inconvenience, could you drop any links to the topics you referenced, especially the ones that differed from what I've been studying, to charles@geuis.com? I'm going a bit deeper now and reading some studies from the early 90's and some that are more recent. It's kind of a crapshoot of what I can google for, so a guided search would be…

Hmmm...it's hard to do entire fields justice, but here's an attempt. There are a couple of standard neurobiology textbooks, like Kandel, Jessel, and Schwartz's Principles of Neural Science , Purve et al.'s Neuroscience and Squire et al.'s Fundamental Neuroscience . These are huge books that cover a bit of everything, and you should know that they exist, but I wouldn't necessarily start there. If you're specifically i…

(cont)

I probably should have lead with this, but there's been a lot of interest in backprop-like algorithms in the brain

* Geoff Hinton has a talk (and slide deck) about how back-propagation might be implemented in the brain. (Slide deck: https://www.cs.toronto.edu/~hinton/backpropincortex2014.pdf Video: http://sms.cam.ac.uk/media/2017973?format=mpeg4&quality=720p )

* As always, the French part of Canada has its own, slightly different version of things, care of Yoshua Bengio (slide deck from NIPS 2015: https://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~bengioy/talks/NIPS2015_NeuralS... preprint: https://arxiv.org/abs/1502.04156 )

* Here is another late 2015 take on back-prop in the brain by Whittington and Bogacz (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/12/28/035451) This one is interesting because they view the brain as a predictive coding device which is continuously estimating the future state of the world and then updating its predictions. (I think the general predictive coding idea is cool and probably under-explored).

* There's a much older paper by Pietro Mazzioni, Richard Andersen, and Michael I. Jordon attempting to derive a more biologically plausible learning rule (here: http://www.pnas.org/content/88/10/4433.full.pdf) This work is particularly neat because it builds on earlier work by Zipser and Andersen (https://www.vis.caltech.edu/documents/54-v331_88.pdf), who trained a three-layer network (via back-prop) to transform data from gaze-centered ('retinotopic') to head-centered coordinates, and noticed that the hidden units performed transforms that look a lot like the work done by individual neurons in Area 7A. The Mazzioni paper then replaces the backprop with a learning procedure that is more biologically plausible.

For backprop, you need some sort of error signal. Wolfram Schultz's group has done a lot of work demonstrating that dopamine neurons encode something like "reward prediction error." (e.g., this: http://jn.physiology.org/content/80/1/1, but they have lots of similar papers: http://www.neuroscience.cam.ac.uk/directory/profile.php?Schu...). For reinforcement learning, you might also want to maintain some sort of value estimate. There are tons of studies looking at value representation in orbitofrontal cortex (OFC), using mostly humans and monkeys, but occasionally rats. Here's a review from Daeyeol Lee and his postdoc Hyojung Seo describing neural mechanisms for reinforcement learning (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1196/annals.1390.007/f... ) The Lee lab has done a lot of interesting value-related things too.

Switching gears slightly, there is also considerable interest around unsupervised learning and related methods for finding "good" representations for things. This is potentially interesting because it would allow for improvements within individuals and even across individuals (e.g., by evolution).

Olshausen and Fields kicked this off by demonstrating that maximizing the sparseness of a linear code for natural images produces a filter bank that resembles the way neurons in primary visual cortex process images. (http://courses.cs.washington.edu/courses/cse528/11sp/Olshaus...)

Michael Lewicki has done similar things in a variety of sensory modalities. Here's a recent paper from him looking at coding in the retina (http://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/jou...) but he has similar work in the auditory system and building on the Olshausen and Fields paper linked above to explain complex cells (and more!) in visual cortex. Bill Geisler has also done a lot of work looking at the statistics of natural scenes and how the brain (and behavior) appears to be adapted for them.

Re: Backpropagation is a leaky abstraction

#105
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you assume the commenter doesn't understand the time and memory characteristics of quicksort?

Nobody mentioned quicksort. You're assuming quicksort, which is what the issue is. Many languages don't actually use quicksort, fyi. The practical performance considerations of just quicksort itself also change depending on how you've implemented the small details - are you moving memory around, or just changing pointers? Huge difference in the real world, no difference in the algorithm.

I oversimplified my response and it lost the point I was making. You are certainly correct that many languages don't use quicksort. My bad.

I was responding to a comment that I felt was needlessly dismissive. The default sort algorithm of any major language's standard library is usually not worth trying to beat, and calling someone "incompetent" for not reinventing the wheel each time they encounter data that needs to be sorted is absurd. Note: I said "usually", not "never". A competent programmer doesn't fix problems that don't exist, and you would absolutely have to profile code before convincing me that the choice of sorting algorithm was the source of a performance problem.

As far as the details go... In only a few languages (e.g. C) might you really even consider moving memory around rather than pointers. The semantics of standard library sort in Java, C#, Ruby, Python, Javascript... is sorting an array of primitives by value or objects by reference.

Re: Backpropagation is a leaky abstraction

#106
post #11

I do think the complaint on having to write the backward pass seems especially shallow; finding out they were working with numpy makes it even more so (since numpy takes the pain out of the matrix operations). IIRC, when I took the ML Class in 2011, we used Octave, but Ng had us first write stuff "the hard way" - so we'd understand what was going on later when we used Octave's methods. Something about this article as…

Coming from a background in neuroscience, IMO, neurons are extremely complicated. There's tons of molecular machinery beyond their inputs and outputs (which in and of themselves are complicated). They are complicated enough that neuroscience has been a field for sometime now, and we still only know very little about the human brain. That's even if we are just talking about a single neuron, ignoring the enormous numbers of neurons and glial cells we have, all interconnected.
Post reply on HN