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15 years trying to make everyone separate HTML, JavaScript, CSS – and then

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Re: 15 years trying to make everyone separate HTML, JavaScript, CSS – and then

#101

Post by blub »

mattmanser wrote: post #97
Lazare wrote: post #76

The thing about Fuchs is that he's a very smart guy, who is deeply embedded in the modern JS world, and is absolutely aware of what that code is doing, why it looks the way it does, why the trend in frameworks has moved the way it has, just how many times the argument he's using has been advanced already, and how thoroughly it's been trashed over the years. He knows that what he's said has been said a thousand times…

how thoroughly it's been trashed over the years So often a phrase like this is repeated on HN. React only got released 3 years ago . How could it be "trashed over the years"? Over what years? It barely qualifies for the plural. I seriously wonder sometimes if javascript programmers live in dog years. React apps haven't been in production long, we're only just entering the maintenance phase, now is exactly when we wil…

Thank you for this, now I finally understand front-end web development. Everything is calculated in dog years, but this fact was not documented at all!

e.g: Major Angular releases every 6 months sounds bonkers, but updates every 3.5 dog years would be satisfactory to all but the most dogged fault-finders.

Re: 15 years trying to make everyone separate HTML, JavaScript, CSS – and then

#102

Post by tbrownaw »

coldtea wrote: post #70
waffleau wrote: post #52

This is a complaint I've heard often about React, and usually it's by someone that's never actually tried it (myself included before I first used it). But it's a visceral response. Until you sit down and give it a go, it's hard to believe that we had the separation of concerns wrong . Separation of concerns refers to responsibilities, not languages. If you're building a static website, sure, you probably don't need R…

> This is a complaint I've heard often about React, and usually it's by someone that's never actually tried it (myself included before I first used it). But it's a visceral response. Until you sit down and give it a go, it's hard to believe that we had the separation of concerns wrong. We didn't. And React doesn't change that either. React components are not logic code, they are UI code, and that has always went with…

I've worked some with both WinForms and WPF, and so far I kinda like XAML. And is you're not only working in the windows world, I hear there's a similar-in-spirit JavaScript/HTML framework being used for "new hotness" style applications. Called "electron" or something like that I think?

Re: 15 years trying to make everyone separate HTML, JavaScript, CSS – and then

#103

Post by TeMPOraL »

waffleau wrote: post #52

This is a complaint I've heard often about React, and usually it's by someone that's never actually tried it (myself included before I first used it). But it's a visceral response. Until you sit down and give it a go, it's hard to believe that we had the separation of concerns wrong . Separation of concerns refers to responsibilities, not languages. If you're building a static website, sure, you probably don't need R…

> Until you sit down and give it a go, it's hard to believe that we had the separation of concerns wrong.

Well, we had - the whole "separate content from presentation" thing was a cargo cult. Before the recent wave of JS frameworks, the standard website was littered with tons of div elements, almost all of which had zero semantic meaning, and existed only as CSS hooks and/or a hipster replacement for tables. And it was like nobody stopped to ask if all those divs aren't breaking the "separation of concerns" rule - or even if the rule made sense in the first place (it didn't; "presentation" often delivers as much information as "content" itself).

I don't know of any other industry so blinded by fads than web development.

Re: 15 years trying to make everyone separate HTML, JavaScript, CSS – and then

#104

Post by madeofpalk »

flukus wrote: post #2

It is amazing how much react resembles php and classic asp from 15 years ago. I guess that's what happens when you don't hire anyone over 30.

Actually, React was written by developers, who may or may not be over 30, who have a very solid understanding of PHP (Facebook) and sort to replicate their discipline and success with PHP on the client.

Re: 15 years trying to make everyone separate HTML, JavaScript, CSS – and then

#106

Post by TeMPOraL »

coldtea wrote: post #70
waffleau wrote: post #52

This is a complaint I've heard often about React, and usually it's by someone that's never actually tried it (myself included before I first used it). But it's a visceral response. Until you sit down and give it a go, it's hard to believe that we had the separation of concerns wrong . Separation of concerns refers to responsibilities, not languages. If you're building a static website, sure, you probably don't need R…

> This is a complaint I've heard often about React, and usually it's by someone that's never actually tried it (myself included before I first used it). But it's a visceral response. Until you sit down and give it a go, it's hard to believe that we had the separation of concerns wrong. We didn't. And React doesn't change that either. React components are not logic code, they are UI code, and that has always went with…

This.

I can't comprehend the very idea of "template languages". Especially in PHP, because PHP itself is a decent template language by design. But even outside - they always evolve the same. They start as a "lightweight" way to avoid putting code into view templates, but then they slowly accrue conditionals, loops, local variables, half-assed tools for defining functions, and before you know, your "no code allowed" template language becomes a Turing-complete and pretty crappy replication of PHP.

And all of that is orthogonal to the main insanity of this whole era - stitching HTML from strings. HTML is a structured tree format, and should be built out as a tree. Gluing strings together is the source of oh so many errors and security vulnerabilities...

Personally, I liked the CL-WHO approach - http://weitz.de/cl-who/.

Re: 15 years trying to make everyone separate HTML, JavaScript, CSS – and then

#107

Post by TeMPOraL »

tbrownaw wrote: post #102
coldtea wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a complaint I've heard often about React, and usually it's by someone that's never actually tried it (myself included before I first used it). But it's a visceral response. Until you sit down and give it a go, it's hard to believe that we had the separation of concerns wrong. We didn't. And React doesn't change that either. React components are not logic code, they are UI code, and that has always went with…

I've worked some with both WinForms and WPF, and so far I kinda like XAML. And is you're not only working in the windows world, I hear there's a similar-in-spirit JavaScript/HTML framework being used for "new hotness" style applications. Called "electron" or something like that I think?

Electron is that thing that bundles the whole web browser with your application so that you can write your usual web code and have it look like a desktop app.

Re: 15 years trying to make everyone separate HTML, JavaScript, CSS – and then

#108

Post by blub »

waffleau wrote: post #52

This is a complaint I've heard often about React, and usually it's by someone that's never actually tried it (myself included before I first used it). But it's a visceral response. Until you sit down and give it a go, it's hard to believe that we had the separation of concerns wrong . Separation of concerns refers to responsibilities, not languages. If you're building a static website, sure, you probably don't need R…

This "most effective tool" looks like a fancy way of concatenating HTML strings in JS. :)

Hardly something that can be described as quality software engineering.

Re: 15 years trying to make everyone separate HTML, JavaScript, CSS – and then

#109

Post by scottmf »

Already__Taken wrote: post #82
ClayFerguson wrote: post #17

In my 15 years I've come to realize that HTML code-generation via JavaScript (or now TypeScript actually) is vastly superior to any type of templating (like JSP, JSF, Velocity, Mustache). Both ways (templating v.s. straight generation) have exactly one sort of 'level of indirection' so they are on the same order of complexity, but generating HTML rather than templating it is a billion times more powerful, so it is ju…

What is 'build = (): string => {' ? Or specifically ():, I know arrow functions.

Looks like build is the function and it returns a string.

I think without the typing it would just be build = () => {

Re: 15 years trying to make everyone separate HTML, JavaScript, CSS – and then

#110

Post by kul_ »

tracker1 wrote: post #65
kul_ wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Take the example of people hating XML and trying to reinvent everything good XML already had with JSON and JSON Schema. http://json-schema.org/

My biggest peeve with XML is there's no concrete way to represent a piece of XML in code, it's in my opinion TOO flexible. You can express something as an attribute, a child, multiple children of the same element, a value of a child, etc. It doesn't translate cleanly to any kind of object structure in terms of code. And it goes in reverse too. Now, there are standards like SOAP, etc... In the end, JSON and some clear…

I am not sure if you had chance to play with JAXB, it maps xml very cleanly to java objects. I mean you can have the whole darn thing define inheritance and it would generate the corresponding relation in Objects too.

IMO It just needs to be given some consideration before rejecting as old bloated piece of crap.

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