Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#141

Post by user837387 » Tue, Dec 20, 2016, 2:28 AM UTC

mikeyouse wrote: post #103

weremine wrote: post #24

Has there been a startup in recent history that was losing this amount of money per year (planned or not) that ended up going green and successful?

Side note, profitability is generally described as "into the black" not the green. Amazon is probably the best example, their GAAP losses totalled several billion dollars for a decade or so before they flipped the switch.

That completely got me. I thought he was talking about green technology which did not make much sense to me. Didn't realize he was talking about profitability.

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#142

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 20, 2016, 2:28 AM UTC

mikeyouse wrote: post #103

weremine wrote: post #24

Has there been a startup in recent history that was losing this amount of money per year (planned or not) that ended up going green and successful?

Side note, profitability is generally described as "into the black" not the green. Amazon is probably the best example, their GAAP losses totalled several billion dollars for a decade or so before they flipped the switch.

[deleted]

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#143

Post by nstj » Tue, Dec 20, 2016, 2:29 AM UTC

ylhert wrote: post #88

nstj wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: > Even in the U.S., Uber's home market, the company continues to lose money. After turning a slight profit in the in the first quarter of this year, Uber lost $100 million in the U.S. in the second quarter. The loss increased in the third quarter, the person said. I thought that they'd turned the corner in the US too, but go figure. I guess the claim that Travis makes about driverless cars relates t…

The US is not a mature market for Uber, it still includes a huge amount of cities where Uber is still relatively new and has yet to reach profitability. My understanding is that the profitable markets are places like SF or LA where Uber has been around for 5 years

Interesting - didn't know you were talking on a per city basis. Anything to back up the claim of profitability in these cities?

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#144

Post by Cyph0n » Tue, Dec 20, 2016, 2:29 AM UTC

eridius wrote: post #130

Cyph0n wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried Lyft the other day, but after they charged me $25 as an "authorization hold" without notification, I cancelled my ride and decided to stick with Uber. Note that Uber's auth charge is usually around $1. $25 may not be a significant amount for some, but it's non-trivial for a college student like myself. I would have been happy had they just notified me first instead of my bank. Terrible UX to be frank. I actua…

I've never seen a $25 authorization hold before. Usually Lyft does something like $5. In any case, once the charge is captured, the rest of the authorization should go away (and the charge is captured as soon as you rate/tip the driver, or after 24 hours, whichever comes first).

That makes sense. It would be really helpful if the user is notified if an authorization hold is required for the next ride, though.

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#145

Post by zaroth » Tue, Dec 20, 2016, 2:29 AM UTC

stuckagain wrote: post #115

rubicon33 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, Google drove a blind man to Taco Bell in 2012 and still hasn't released a self driving car 4 years later. Meanwhile, Uber's been in the self driving car business half that time? They already looks more likely to actually have these things on the road, and, they have the incentive, and cash pool to do it. Another reason people "get this impression" is that Google has a history of interesting projects that never m…

I don't understand how Uber "looks more likely to actually have these things on the road" when Google's cars have been driving people around Mountain View for years. Please explain.

Not people. Google Engineers.

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#146

Post by ChuckMcM » Tue, Dec 20, 2016, 2:29 AM UTC

As others point out this isn't necessarily bad, but it does mean that Uber is extremely vulnerable. If we learned anything in the last bubble it was that attempting to bootstrap through the power curve is exceptionally susceptible to capital constraints. Back in the dot com days a number of 'baby telephone companies' that were building out their networks and spending huge amounts of money on laying out the infrastructure that was going to carry the traffic they would get after their build out, meant that any cash crunch had this amazing multiplicative effect, which resulted in a massive implosion in practically no time (one customer I talked to in 1999 was putting the finishing touches on a $1.2M PO on Monday, and when we showed up for the meeting on Wednesday the doors were locked and the name of an attorney's office was there for questions. Later I found out they were negotiating additional funding and even though their business plan was "solid" once some other companies had gone under, everyone got too skittish to commit. They were already burning through cash to people who were putting in new fiber cables etc. They went upside down (more obligations than cash or revenue) on Tuesday and the bank sent the attorneys (and Sheriff) over to secure the assets before anyone could walk them out of the building that afternoon. Pilots have a term for crashes like this, its called "controlled flight into terrain" where basically right up until the last moment the pilot was flying the plane. So it can be with startups that right up until the day it isn't flying they are in control.

Its nice that if Uber does implode (not that they will) that only VC's will lose their money, of course Uber drivers will be out of their jobs as well but they hopefully won't be greatly finanically hurt. And of course a lot of employees that thought they were millionaires will realize that they aren't (been there, done that, got the t-shirt :-()

I hope at some point in the not too distant future we can get some more transparency on their financials. I really do consider them the poster child for the 'dynamic' economy (one where service suppliers and service demanders are paired in real time for a fee). If they can't make it work it will really call into question if it is even possible to make it work.

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#147

Post by whitepoplar » Tue, Dec 20, 2016, 2:29 AM UTC

ylhert wrote: post #30

My understanding is that in mature markets, Uber is profitable. The issue is that it takes a few years to become profitable in a market and so it's extreme growth pushes out profitability on the whole for a few years

Yes, but how profitable? Enough to support their valuation of $75B?

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#148

Post by tomc1985 » Tue, Dec 20, 2016, 2:31 AM UTC

niftich wrote: post #110

tomc1985 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proof that HN is out-of-touch...

This here doesn't apply. Uber isn't a cash venture, and several activities in the US require either a credit card upon which temporary authorizations can be placed, or a full (and sometimes, over-)payment on a debit card, the difference being that the debit card isn't backed by a line of credit that becomes due in at least 20 days, but rather it is spent directly out of a checking account. You need this for: - gas st…

My comment was directed specifically at this:

  Is ride-sharing that big of a cost for your day to day?

For a lot of people, it is. The only people I have ever heard say this kind of thing, at least from my experience, are middle-class and well-off, or better. This cohort is the exception, because the norm (especially among millenials) is check-to-check living. $25 is several days' worth of food, two weeks' coffee budget, the price of a full tank of gas for a small car, or numerous other things to many, and $25 can be the difference between your card going through or being declined.

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#149

Post by Apocryphon » Tue, Dec 20, 2016, 2:31 AM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #134

Apocryphon wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when do hackers bleat about obeying laws and regulations? What happened to having a "we can do better" mindset? Since when does hackerdom constitute blindly following dogma, whether it be libertarian or not?

Strange that you would respond with that, given that I'm arguing exactly against "following dogma". What I'm saying is that, as hackers, we have traditionally taken on a mindset that says "we can use our intellect, reason, science, etc. to figure out better solutions" without regard for dogma. And more and more people seem to be drifting away from that and just punting and saying "fuck it, the State will make everyth…

The very fact that you treat this state as a separate entity from the people is a problem. In a republic, the state is the citizenry. Hackers are part of the state and can influence the state and should work with the state. No one here is agitating for delegating all responsibilities to the state. The point is that private businesses should work with the state and seek to change and reform regulation when necessary, not permanently act in defiance of the laws of the state. Hackers understand the use of a good tool, and if the state is one, then hackers should use that tool. To throw it away is blind libertarian dogma with empty rhetoric about "nanny states" and other bogeymen.

Furthermore, even supposed would-be laissez-faire capitalists know this- I doubt that startups pass up the chance to use government policies to their own advantage, or pursue rent-seeking behaviors that help their startups. The perfect libertarian society you envision exists next to the perfect communist society, as utopias that contravene human nature.

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#150

Post by mindcrime » Tue, Dec 20, 2016, 2:31 AM UTC

Analemma_ wrote: post #77

mindcrime wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evade local regulations that everyone else follows in the name of 'innovation' even though the reality is they are just taking a free pass on conducting background checks, and skipping safety guidelines. When they replace all taxis, do they really think they can just permanently ignore all driving laws? Since when do hackers bleat about obeying laws and regulations? What happened to having a "we can do better" mindse…

> Since when do hackers bleat about obeying laws and regulations? ... Has everybody wigged out and flipped their "I want a nanny state to protect me 24/7" bit? Please stop perpetuating this myth- started by Eric Raymond and happily encouraged by SV "thought leaders"- that hackers must , by definition, be laissez-faire capitalists who love Ayn Rand and treat breaking laws as a noble goal in and of itself. I do none of…

Please stop perpetuating this myth- started by Eric Raymond and happily encouraged by SV "thought leaders"- that hackers must, by definition, be laissez-faire capitalists who love Ayn Rand and treat breaking laws as a noble goal in and of itself.

Nice strawman. Luckily I didn't say anything about esr, laissez-faire, capitalism, or Ayn Rand in the post you replied to. Hell, I didn't even say that breaking the law is a "noble goal in and of itself".

All I'm saying is that it's disturbing to me how so many HN'ers have just completely sold out to the idea that the State is their proper master, and should regulate / control pretty much everything and anything. It seems to me that in the past, there was a more individualist / freedom oriented mindset around sites like this - whether it was from "American style libertarians" or socialist anarchists or whatever. Personally I find the change to be a bit depressing.