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Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

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Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#71
post #59

So what's "net revenue" in this context? I always thought revenue was income before costs, and profit was revenue minus cost. Gross revenue would make sense as "total income", but net revenue doesn't make any sense to me. Clearly I'm missing something. Can someone explain?

In this context it is revenue after drivers' fees but before anything else, ie HQ, R&D, payroll, etc.

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#72
post #4

Presumably this is intentional -- Uber could raise prices and make more money, but right now they're choosing to keep prices very low in order to undercut Lyft and the cab companies with the assumption that having a monopoly will return more profits in the future. At least anecdotally, here in SF Lyft is almost always more expensive than Uber.

I would just take Juno. The drivers here in NYC are only doing Uber to get enough ratings to qualify for Juno. Uber went way too far squeezing drivers, it's a mess. I've seen their Uber pool earnings ... It should be illegal.

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lyft may be more expensive on paper but I always use it instead of Uber where it is available and they send me so many discounts and coupons that I almost never pay the full price.

Out of curiosity, why do you prefer Lyft?

https://www.cnet.com/news/uber-executive-considered-investig... http://www.businessinsider.com/uber-employees-stalked-celebr...

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#74
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uber does background checks, not sure where the idea that they are skipping them comes from

It might come from the fact that they ragequit Austin rather than do background checks.

Austin was requiring fingerprinting background checks, which have been shown to be much less accurate than the background check process that Uber currently uses. It's really a step backwards in every respect (speed, accuracy, cost).

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#75

Uber is making the rest of us in SV look terrible. 1. Collect a huge pile of money at sky-high valuations from those who really should know better. 2. Ignore any sensible unit economics and undercut local taxi/transport services until those small businesses go bankrupt since they don't have Uber's money pile. 3. Evade local regulations that everyone else follows in the name of 'innovation' even though the reality is…

Huh? What's the end game? The end game is a company with self driving cars, having SIGNIFICANTLY less overhead than they currently do with human drivers. And, probably a ton of technology patents to boot? Yea, they're definitely a brazen company, but do you really expect anything less from a unicorn company? Very few make it this big without cutting some corners, having some connection, etc.

Perhaps, but we are still a long way off from fully self driving cars actually giving rides to replace taxis at scale. It's not clear how Uber gets from here to there without continuing to lose many billions per year... at which point the whole self driving car thing will be largely a commodity that others could easily run themselves.

Right now Uber is really just proving that if you burn billions and billions you can create a "market" for your "product." It has yet to show that it's a real company with long term prospects. There's a difference between losing money because you haven't hit scale (when Facebook was losing money in the early years) and losing money because you're at scale and just undercutting everyone to show you can make "revenue" or by investing in "innovation" that everyone and their brother is doing and doing it better than Uber.

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#76
post #4

Presumably this is intentional -- Uber could raise prices and make more money, but right now they're choosing to keep prices very low in order to undercut Lyft and the cab companies with the assumption that having a monopoly will return more profits in the future. At least anecdotally, here in SF Lyft is almost always more expensive than Uber.

That's such a terrible strategy I can't believe that's really what they're doing. The short term problem is that they can't burn through money long enough for it to work. The barrier to entry to create an Uber or Lyft competitor is very low - anybody with a car and a laptop can create a viable Uber competitor. Nobody's doing it because Uber, Lyft, and taxis are everywhere, but when there's only Uber, and they're sudd…

They've went through periods where in some cities (plus I think they always did this in China) they would pay the drivers more than the customer would pay in order to boost both driver and rider numbers.

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#77

Uber is making the rest of us in SV look terrible. 1. Collect a huge pile of money at sky-high valuations from those who really should know better. 2. Ignore any sensible unit economics and undercut local taxi/transport services until those small businesses go bankrupt since they don't have Uber's money pile. 3. Evade local regulations that everyone else follows in the name of 'innovation' even though the reality is…

Evade local regulations that everyone else follows in the name of 'innovation' even though the reality is they are just taking a free pass on conducting background checks, and skipping safety guidelines. When they replace all taxis, do they really think they can just permanently ignore all driving laws? Since when do hackers bleat about obeying laws and regulations? What happened to having a "we can do better" mindse…

> Since when do hackers bleat about obeying laws and regulations? ... Has everybody wigged out and flipped their "I want a nanny state to protect me 24/7" bit?

Please stop perpetuating this myth- started by Eric Raymond and happily encouraged by SV "thought leaders"- that hackers must, by definition, be laissez-faire capitalists who love Ayn Rand and treat breaking laws as a noble goal in and of itself. I do none of those things, because I recognize that many times regulations are vital for ensuring human health and happiness, and think that free-for-all capitalism leads mostly to misery for all but a few in the plutocracy. "We can do beter" implies not settling for a world like that.

Other people don't have to agree with my politics, but if they want to say I'm "not a hacker" because of that, they can take their very-politically-motivated prescriptivism and... well, I got told by dang the other day and I'm trying to cut down on the angry HN posts because of it, but you get the idea.

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#78
post #4

Presumably this is intentional -- Uber could raise prices and make more money, but right now they're choosing to keep prices very low in order to undercut Lyft and the cab companies with the assumption that having a monopoly will return more profits in the future. At least anecdotally, here in SF Lyft is almost always more expensive than Uber.

That's such a terrible strategy I can't believe that's really what they're doing. The short term problem is that they can't burn through money long enough for it to work. The barrier to entry to create an Uber or Lyft competitor is very low - anybody with a car and a laptop can create a viable Uber competitor. Nobody's doing it because Uber, Lyft, and taxis are everywhere, but when there's only Uber, and they're sudd…

They don't seem to actually get in trouble though. Sometimes an official wags their finger and then everything carries on as before.

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#79
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uber does background checks, not sure where the idea that they are skipping them comes from

By 'background check' I mean a process that the local govt. believes is necessary based on experience and past incidents, not something that someone at Uber came up with randomly. "News of assaults by ride-hailing drivers has been a frequent occurrence. Reports of rape, battery and harassment have grabbed headlines in California, Georgia, Illinois, Texas, Washington, Florida and many other states. While some of these…

Background checks are definitely imperfect, but that is not Ubers fault. The issue is usually not the background check providers, but rather the upstream data sources (read: local governments, courthouses, DMV, etc)

Disclaimer: I work at a background check company

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#80
post #11

Uber is making the rest of us in SV look terrible. 1. Collect a huge pile of money at sky-high valuations from those who really should know better. 2. Ignore any sensible unit economics and undercut local taxi/transport services until those small businesses go bankrupt since they don't have Uber's money pile. 3. Evade local regulations that everyone else follows in the name of 'innovation' even though the reality is…

AFAIK, this is called "Dumping the market". And it should not be legal...

Took me 30 seconds on the FTC website to find it: https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-a...

    Can prices ever be "too low?" The short answer is yes, but not very often.
    Generally, low prices benefit consumers. Consumers are harmed only if below-cost                                                                                pricing allows a dominant competitor to knock its rivals out of the market and
    then raise prices to above-market levels for a substantial time. A firm's
    independent decision to reduce prices to a level below its own costs does not
    necessarily injure competition, and, in fact, may simply reflect particularly
    vigorous competition. Instances of a large firm using low prices to drive
    smaller competitors out of the market in hopes of raising prices after they
    leave are rare. This strategy can only be successful if the short-run losses
    from pricing below cost will be made up for by much higher prices over a longer
    period of time after competitors leave the market. Although the FTC examines
    claims of predatory pricing carefully, courts, including the Supreme Court, have
    been skeptical of such claims.
IANAL, but I'd be very interested in hearing a lawyer's take on this.
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