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The Chevy Bolt Is the Ugly Car of the Near Future

bloomberg.com

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Re: The Chevy Bolt Is the Ugly Car of the Near Future

#71

Post by gizmo »

pseudometa wrote: post #5

"Tesla loses money on every car too." This is false, Tesla averages $18,000 margin on every model S & model X it sells. "So how did GM pull off a $30,000 car with 200 miles of range?" It didn't. It is $30k only after $8000 of federal tax credits.

Tesla uses very unconventional accounting to arrive at that gross margin. Specifically they don't subtract R&D costs from their margins. When you correct for this Tesla's gross margin is within a few percent of the median for the automotive industry.

> In 2015, Tesla spent over $700 million on research and development while selling about 50,000 vehicles. If Tesla reported gross margins like other automakers, gross margin would have been reduced by $14,000 PER VEHICLE.

Tesla also has huge sales expenses that they don't subtract from their margins. Take that into account, and Tesla isn't making any profit per car anymore. To make matters worse, they also need to raise an enormous amount of money in order to manufacture the model 3 at scale. It's questionable if they'll be able to do that.

Tesla is operated very much like a silicon valley startup. They're growing rapidly in the hope of becoming profitable when they reach scale. But they sure as heck aren't profitable right now.

Source: http://seekingalpha.com/article/3994655-teslas-gross-margins...

Re: The Chevy Bolt Is the Ugly Car of the Near Future

#73

Post by nickpeterson »

burger_moon wrote: post #61
RKoutnik wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Model 3 starts at $35k, the Bolt at $37.5k. If you're in the market for the Bolt post-Model 3 launch, then there's not much difference in price - why not go for the classier car?

Well dealer distribution is one point. You don't have to go far to find mechanics that can service your Chevy. If you live outside a major city it's a pia to get your tesla serviced. Additionally Chevy allows people to buy parts for their cars and you can service it yourself or at an independent shop.

Be careful though, the dealership might be able to order and sell it, but if they don't sell many in your area, I can guarantee they won't be good at fixing issues.

Re: The Chevy Bolt Is the Ugly Car of the Near Future

#74

Post by tclAmockingbird »

dirkg wrote: post #38

Why are diesel cars hated in the US? You can get a range of diesel car sin Europe which give you 50-60mpg, have all kinds of comforts and can be cheap, without the trickery of tax credits.

The US has stricter emission limits for NOx than Europe, which are difficult to meet with diesels given locally available fuels. Meeting the limits in the US tends to require adding onboard treatment systems, increasing initial purchase and recurring costs. The diesel engine is also more expensive here. Basically, it's frequently not cost effective.

Re: The Chevy Bolt Is the Ugly Car of the Near Future

#75

Post by NikolaNovak »

codeulike wrote: post #13

I think it looks fine. You Americans have a weird dislike of hatchbacks. To European eyes, it just looks very normal. Good luck to GM but I suspect their dealerships won't bother trying to sell many of these.

Agreed; it looks like every other cool, funky hatchback I know :). I'd buy it.

(And it's both Canadians & Americans that have a weird dislike of hatchbacks)

[though I suppose from their perspective, I have a weird liking of hatchbacks, what with their practicality, effective use of space, and good looks 0;-]

Re: The Chevy Bolt Is the Ugly Car of the Near Future

#76

Post by r00fus »

RKoutnik wrote: post #49
dirkg wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I want a nice car Translation: I can afford a luxury car, Tesla is one of the nicer luxury cars and happens to be electric.

The Model 3 starts at $35k, the Bolt at $37.5k. If you're in the market for the Bolt post-Model 3 launch, then there's not much difference in price - why not go for the classier car?

Good point, and one I have posed myself. However, if you see GM's dealerships as marketing channels, then there's simply a lot more people who would even know about the Bolt vs. the Tesla Model3 (using the logic). If you don't know an alternative exists, maybe what's in front of you is your best rational choice?

Re: The Chevy Bolt Is the Ugly Car of the Near Future

#77

Post by [deleted] »

FussyZeus wrote: post #8

Tesla proved that eco-minded cars didn't need to be ugly, yet ALL other manufacturers continue to produce only ugly cars (they don't get points for bootstrapping hybrid models of existing cars). I am amazed none of the other purveyors of electric cars have managed to figure this out. Even the BMW offering ranks high on the "God what the hell" scale in terms of its design. The Prius started this stupid trend of cars f…

[deleted]

Re: The Chevy Bolt Is the Ugly Car of the Near Future

#78

Post by gozur88 »

burger_moon wrote: post #61
RKoutnik wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Model 3 starts at $35k, the Bolt at $37.5k. If you're in the market for the Bolt post-Model 3 launch, then there's not much difference in price - why not go for the classier car?

Well dealer distribution is one point. You don't have to go far to find mechanics that can service your Chevy. If you live outside a major city it's a pia to get your tesla serviced. Additionally Chevy allows people to buy parts for their cars and you can service it yourself or at an independent shop.

I have to believe when there are millions of Teslas on the road you'll be able to find Tesla mechanics locally. The danger is the Model 3 flops and you're forever stuck going to the closest Tesla service station.

Re: The Chevy Bolt Is the Ugly Car of the Near Future

#79

Post by _ea1k »

colechristensen wrote: post #65
Thorncorona wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind you wouldn't regularly fully discharge a car battery pack, however you would discharge a phone battery. Thus capacity reduction occurs at a slower rate than a laptop or phone.

The yearly losses are fixed, unrelated to usage. The per-cycle losses are indeed less when you don't fully discharge, but only by a relatively small amount. Lets say you have a battery with a capacity of 100. Empty it completely 100 times and the capacity might be around 95. Empty it only 20% 500 times (for the same total energy usage) and it's capacity might have only degraded to 97. Better, but not nearly enough to…

That assumption is actually incorrect. Data: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_li...

Table 2 shows the lifespan of a typical Lithium Ion battery based upon various discharge depths. 100% discharge rates degrade to less than 70% of original capacity after only 300-500 cycles.

25% discharges hit the same value after 2,000-2,500 cycles. That level of discharge is fairly common with cars like the Tesla.

Having said that, you do have a point about overbuilt batteries too. Some Teslas do have much bigger than rated batteries that are software limited. It is completely possible for someone else to "beat" them on range by utilizing more of the available capacity.

Re: The Chevy Bolt Is the Ugly Car of the Near Future

#80

Post by eip »

FussyZeus wrote: post #8

Tesla proved that eco-minded cars didn't need to be ugly, yet ALL other manufacturers continue to produce only ugly cars (they don't get points for bootstrapping hybrid models of existing cars). I am amazed none of the other purveyors of electric cars have managed to figure this out. Even the BMW offering ranks high on the "God what the hell" scale in terms of its design. The Prius started this stupid trend of cars f…

>yet ALL other manufacturers continue to produce only ugly cars

It's like they are having a competition to make the ugliest car ever.

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