Live data from Hacker News

OpenSSH 7.4 released

openssh.com

21–30 of 43 posts

Re: OpenSSH 7.4 released

#21
post #16

Hm. That's more mechanism-as-policy than I like, e.g. : Refusing all RSA keys smaller than 1024 bits The next release of OpenSSH will remove support for running sshd(8) with privilege separation disabled That's not really the sort of decision application programmers should be making for sysadmins.

> That's not really the sort of decision application programmers should be making for sysadmins. As a programmer you have the right (or maybe even obligation?) to write secure software and I would argue software that's hard or impossible to use insecurely. It should live up to the standards of the time of release, not the time of the release of the first version (in case of OpenSSH that would be more than seventeen y…

I disagree with bandrami in this case, but I don't think this is quite right either because you focused on an instance-specific goal rather then universal principle:

>As a programmer you have the right (or maybe even obligation?) to write secure software and I would argue software that's hard or impossible to use insecurely.

There is plenty of software where secure usage is not a concern and that's fine. Rather, it would be better to say that as programmers we have the job to ensure that our software is as fit for primary expected purpose as possible, and in particularly lacks any surprising gotchas. Sometimes within a given program's core purpose there are decisions that can only be properly made as part of deployment/usage and those are appropriately left to the sysadmin/user, but if something is directly contrary to core purpose then it's always worth questioning whether it needs to change.

In the case of OpenSSH in particular the core purpose is in fact secure links. We've all long had an insecure very fast virtual terminal system if we wanted it and it's called Telnet. There is no reason that any available built-in mode of OpenSSH crypto should ever be insecure. Asking to have obsolete methods generally considered to no longer be reliable to be "left up to the sysadmin" would be like asking it to have rot13 as a sysadmin option: completely contrary to the purpose and expected function of the program. Not just in security but in software in general any extra switches carry both developmental load (more code to go wrong), deployment load (more possibilities to make mistakes) and cognitive load, so they should always be considered to have inherent negative value and then asked to justify themselves, not considered to stick around forever by default.

Re: OpenSSH 7.4 released

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, sysadmins have resolutely refused to make the right choices, thus forcing the issue.

Since I bump back and fourth between sysadmin and programmer gigs, I don't get why a system admin wouldn't want a programmer to build their software with privilege separation? What am I missing? Having a secure system is a big deal for a system admin (these days the #1 deal), but at some point you have to rely on a programmer getting it right.

Privsep is great; I use it whenever I can. I also have tiny embedded systems that don't support it, as well as containerized systems that don't need it.

Re: OpenSSH 7.4 released

#23
post #21
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's not really the sort of decision application programmers should be making for sysadmins. As a programmer you have the right (or maybe even obligation?) to write secure software and I would argue software that's hard or impossible to use insecurely. It should live up to the standards of the time of release, not the time of the release of the first version (in case of OpenSSH that would be more than seventeen y…

I disagree with bandrami in this case, but I don't think this is quite right either because you focused on an instance-specific goal rather then universal principle: > As a programmer you have the right (or maybe even obligation?) to write secure software and I would argue software that's hard or impossible to use insecurely. There is plenty of software where secure usage is not a concern and that's fine. Rather, it…

Deprecating ciphers I'm fine with. Telling me a minimum required key size isn't, because they have no idea what the window of security I'm looking for is. If I need to keep a text secure for 2.5 seconds, a short key is fine, and for that matter a longer key gets logistically problematic.

Re: OpenSSH 7.4 released

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since I bump back and fourth between sysadmin and programmer gigs, I don't get why a system admin wouldn't want a programmer to build their software with privilege separation? What am I missing? Having a secure system is a big deal for a system admin (these days the #1 deal), but at some point you have to rely on a programmer getting it right.

Privsep is great; I use it whenever I can. I also have tiny embedded systems that don't support it, as well as containerized systems that don't need it.

Why would a containerized system not need it? Defense in depth would be a good thing.

Re: OpenSSH 7.4 released

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since I bump back and fourth between sysadmin and programmer gigs, I don't get why a system admin wouldn't want a programmer to build their software with privilege separation? What am I missing? Having a secure system is a big deal for a system admin (these days the #1 deal), but at some point you have to rely on a programmer getting it right.

Privsep is great; I use it whenever I can. I also have tiny embedded systems that don't support it, as well as containerized systems that don't need it.

Thinking that containers don't need privsep is exactly why this choice has been taken away.

Re: OpenSSH 7.4 released

#26
post #13

I was saddened to read the release notes that state: "OpenSSH is a 100% complete SSH protocol 2.0 implementation... " This bug[0] calling out the fact that OpenSSH doesn't implement section 6.9 of RFC 4254 (which allows you to send signals to remote processes) has been open since 2008, complete with community submitted patches that implement that part of the protocol. My recent pet Golang project[1] is a parallel rem…

I mostly jumped to the bottom of the bug discussion thread there, but there doesn't seem to be much opposition to adding this, just comments deferring this to other releases. Are they just requesting that patch submitters do some extra work to get it in there?

Re: OpenSSH 7.4 released

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Privsep is great; I use it whenever I can. I also have tiny embedded systems that don't support it, as well as containerized systems that don't need it.

Thinking that containers don't need privsep is exactly why this choice has been taken away.

Because my containers use the exact same mechanisms a privsep scheme would use.

Re: OpenSSH 7.4 released

#28
post #3
post #2

Why isn't openssh.com served over https ? You'd think it would be, given where it comes from, who those people are and what it is. (tone: I'm just surprised)

https works as well: https://www.openssh.com/txt/release-7.4 Maybe submitter here on HN just put http. Would be better if it did the redirect automatically though.

Their TLS configuration is very strict. Only TLS 1.2 with only ECDHE + ChaCha20 or AES-GCM cipher suites. A lot of clients can't talk to it (including IE 11 on Windows 7 and 8), so it makes sense that they still offer non-encrypted connections: https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=openssh.com.

Re: OpenSSH 7.4 released

#29
post #26
post #13

I was saddened to read the release notes that state: "OpenSSH is a 100% complete SSH protocol 2.0 implementation... " This bug[0] calling out the fact that OpenSSH doesn't implement section 6.9 of RFC 4254 (which allows you to send signals to remote processes) has been open since 2008, complete with community submitted patches that implement that part of the protocol. My recent pet Golang project[1] is a parallel rem…

I mostly jumped to the bottom of the bug discussion thread there, but there doesn't seem to be much opposition to adding this, just comments deferring this to other releases. Are they just requesting that patch submitters do some extra work to get it in there?

I think they've been wanting to get this patch into OpenSSH for years, but for whatever reasons it just never happened. I assumed it was a community patch, but it was actually written by Darren Tucker, who is an OpenSSH dev.

There was some conversation about if it was appropriate to pass on certain signals, but that's about it. After Darren cleaned up some client UI issues that bugged him, he even suggested that we might see the patch in 5.4.

Re: OpenSSH 7.4 released

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Privsep is great; I use it whenever I can. I also have tiny embedded systems that don't support it, as well as containerized systems that don't need it.

Why would a containerized system not need it? Defense in depth would be a good thing.

Because Docker isn't running as root to begin with; it just convinces the containerized process that it is.
Post reply on HN