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Drug firms poured 780M painkillers into WV amid rise of overdoses

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Re: Drug firms poured 780M painkillers into WV amid rise of overdoses

#31
post #5

Not that pharma is angelic here, but don't the doctors have the largest measure of blame for writing unnecessary scripts, failing to monitor for abuse, and failing to encourage alternate options? I'm in favor of maximum MD power. I think they should be allowed to prescribe everything from cocaine to bleach, or any other chemical compound, as suits the patient care, if they know what they're doing. But they should als…

I don't know what Pharma's role was exactly, but let's not forget the vast medical academic community that created the focus on pain treatment throughout the 1990s. See JAMA. 2000;284(21):2785. doi:10.1001/jama.284.21.2785-JMS1206-3-1 (http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/1843560) and http://www.nytimes.com/1992/03/06/us/us-urges-doctors-to-fig...

Re: Drug firms poured 780M painkillers into WV amid rise of overdoses

#32
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there is also information asymmetry at play here. Patients could have legit pain, and then go to multiple doctors, without the others finding out. Then they could sell those to other people, or use them all themselves. On the other hand, the pharmacies might know, but that could be worked around by a motivated pill-obtainer. The pharma companies, however, definitely know that they sent 780 million painkillers t…

Between Surescripts providing centralized medication history, and statewide controlled substance prescription registries, doctors can no longer claim ignorance when dealing with drug-seeking patients. But those sources of information were spotty and incomplete up to a few years ago.

This is exactly right. My wife is a pharmacist and our state only recently implemented the database of medication history. In the past a seeker could go to any doctor, or any pharmacist and they would have no idea of this patients medical / prescription history. So even if they denied the patient their prescription, they would just go somewhere else. When WV tightened the restrictions and limits on suboxone seekers would just leave the state to get ahold of it.

Re: Drug firms poured 780M painkillers into WV amid rise of overdoses

#33
post #21
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cut off WV from painkillers? Given the kind of logical leaps the War on Drugs takes, why not? I'm sure that someone, somewhere, in WV is getting high on pills as we speak.

Sometimes I think there will be movies like 'Blow' in 20 years that will be about the wild west times of prescription drugs, and the kingpins who had houses filled with money from the proceeds.

There is already a pretty good book on the subject:

https://www.amazon.com/Dreamland-True-Americas-Opiate-Epidem...

Re: Drug firms poured 780M painkillers into WV amid rise of overdoses

#34
post #9
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, 433 over six years, 2007 through 2012. Which is about 72 per year, per person. I mean, what is supposed to be done about this? Cut off WV from painkillers? Have the DEA raid a bunch of pharmacies?

You can tell it was a tabloid style article by the headline: "Drug firms poured..." >Which is about 72 per year, per person. That doesn't sound unreasonable. I would guess the average prescription is 2-4 a day per person per year.

Chronic pain can use a lot of pills per year. One every couple hours perhaps.

I knew WV was a bit militaristic but some google results and some division imply 10% of the population are military veterans. Its almost believable given how many WV residents I met in the Army, generally extremely nice people BTW. So if no one in WV takes pain pills but military vets, then the vets get a whopping two pills per day and everybody else gets precisely zip nada nothing.

Yeah sure most vets are not taking pain pills. But the guy with no working knees or limbs blown off in an IED, he's probably taking more than two per day, the casualties from one IED explosion could make up for a whole retired company or even battalion of people not ever taking pills. And of course the general population has its own segments of people who have permanent physical problems, or temporary, or are painfully slowly dying of cancer, etc.

Here's another interesting depressing bottom up analysis. Lets say a third of people die of cancer after a year of horrific pain taking ten pills per day and they die on average at age 50 (think of all those heavy smokers and heavy drinkers with annihilated livers, plus the numbers are simpler and to one sig fig don't matter anyway). So if it takes 3650 pain pills per cancer death and a third of the population dies of cancer, that means the average dead took 1000 or so pain pills in the year before they died, and unless we suddenly become immortal that divided by 50 year lifetime means the average person is taking 20 pills per year over the course of their life, even if they never take a pill in their lives until the last year of life before a cancer death and 2/3 of them never take a single pill in their entire lives if they die in car accidents or whatever not from cancer. Now of course not every terminal cancer diagnosis takes an entire year to die and not all medical interventions including cancer in remission take zero pills and not everyone with terminal cancer takes ten pills per day, but none of these assumptions are more than an order of magnitude off on average.

Not really the season for depressing analysis like this, but math is math and the general public is utterly innumerate, so its relevant to the discussion...

I would suspect from this bottom up analysis that dozens of pills per person-year is not too far off from other states numbers and by playing games with careful selection of subgroups you can manufacture all sorts of crazy "surprisingly high" numbers that are anything but.

Re: Drug firms poured 780M painkillers into WV amid rise of overdoses

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are a large number of people that simply want a different mix of prohibition and enforcement than we have today. It doesn't take a whole lot of doublethink to want laws around marijuana relaxed while at the same time preferring to keep the FDA.

Okay, but what I'm saying is that once the tools are in place to ban various substances for personal consumption, and make those bans stick through enforcement, then that's all the tools you need for a War on Drugs. I mean, at that point, it's just "ban this thing, and not that thing, because it's what I want." What takes doublethink is imagining that, once these powers are in place, they won't be used against one's…

In practice the War on Drugs has involved arresting and imprisoning a lot of people and the militarization of police.

How many people are in prison for violating FDA rulings? I'm sure there are a few, but policing egregious behavior is probably a step that a reasonable society takes out onto that slippery slope of having rules about a thing.

Re: Drug firms poured 780M painkillers into WV amid rise of overdoses

#37
post #5

Not that pharma is angelic here, but don't the doctors have the largest measure of blame for writing unnecessary scripts, failing to monitor for abuse, and failing to encourage alternate options? I'm in favor of maximum MD power. I think they should be allowed to prescribe everything from cocaine to bleach, or any other chemical compound, as suits the patient care, if they know what they're doing. But they should als…

I had a friend who was a pharmacist and worked at several places like CVS. He said they routinely refused to fulfill prescriptions to people they felt were either gaming the system or were using outright fraud to get their meds.

He said after a while it became a game. User would get a script and come in totally strung out. My buddy would refuse to refill their meds. User would call doctor and yell and them. Doctor would call Pharmacy and yell at my friend, who would then have to tell the Doctor what was going on. Most of the time, he said the Doctors had no idea this person had 15 different scripts for pain killers.

For me, there's still too many loopholes to exploit in the process.

Re: Drug firms poured 780M painkillers into WV amid rise of overdoses

#39

These are rational people making a decision for themselves if the pain relief is worth and side effects or other Iissues. Let the people of WV make up their own minds and let the market speak for itself.

This shows a huge lack of empathy for addiction and big disrespect for the power of opioids.

Re: Drug firms poured 780M painkillers into WV amid rise of overdoses

#40
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can tell it was a tabloid style article by the headline: "Drug firms poured..." >Which is about 72 per year, per person. That doesn't sound unreasonable. I would guess the average prescription is 2-4 a day per person per year.

Do you think every person, every man woman and child, has a legitimate need for 2-4 pills of narcotics each day? Am I misunderstanding the figure? Instead of 2-4 a day per person, maybe you should calculate how many it is per person with a legitimate need for the drug.

I think you are misunderstanding the figure, it is 72 pill/year/person, so if an average person with a prescription is taking 2-4 (let's just use 3) they will need 365*3 = 1095 pills/year. That rate of consumption implies that 72/1095 = 6.5% of the total population is on a never ending prescription for opiates.

As a percentage of the population, that still seems really high, but WV is taking 0.2 pills/person/day not 2-4 pills/person/day

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