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Drug firms poured 780M painkillers into WV amid rise of overdoses

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Re: Drug firms poured 780M painkillers into WV amid rise of overdoses

#11

Post by vkou »

snrplfth wrote: post #8
vkou wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cut off WV from painkillers? Given the kind of logical leaps the War on Drugs takes, why not? I'm sure that someone, somewhere, in WV is getting high on pills as we speak.

I've never been quite able to grasp the logic of those people who think that, while the War on Drugs is a bad idea, the FDA being able to ban whatever drugs it likes is a good idea. Either the government should have the power to ban drugs or it shouldn't, but too many people seem to want it both ways: prohibition without enforcement.

The FDA bans drugs from making unverified medical claims. That's the raison d'etre for its existence. Given the circumstances, they do a pretty damn good job of this.

You can put whatever the hell you want in your non-FDA-approved snake oil supplement - but then you won't have the legitimacy of the medical establishment behind you. This legitimacy depends on your drug having verifiable, understood effects. You can't have it both ways.

Re: Drug firms poured 780M painkillers into WV amid rise of overdoses

#12

Post by chillwaves »

snrplfth wrote: post #8
vkou wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cut off WV from painkillers? Given the kind of logical leaps the War on Drugs takes, why not? I'm sure that someone, somewhere, in WV is getting high on pills as we speak.

I've never been quite able to grasp the logic of those people who think that, while the War on Drugs is a bad idea, the FDA being able to ban whatever drugs it likes is a good idea. Either the government should have the power to ban drugs or it shouldn't, but too many people seem to want it both ways: prohibition without enforcement.

> Either the government should have the power to ban drugs or it shouldn't

Surely there is middle ground. A drug can be regulated but not banned. The way a drug is prescribed could be regulated. This needs to happen with opiates. That doesn't mean they should be banned but the addiction potential is very serious for these drugs (and vastly underestimated when they first entered the market).

Re: Drug firms poured 780M painkillers into WV amid rise of overdoses

#13

Post by chillwaves »

Clubber wrote: post #9
snrplfth wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, 433 over six years, 2007 through 2012. Which is about 72 per year, per person. I mean, what is supposed to be done about this? Cut off WV from painkillers? Have the DEA raid a bunch of pharmacies?

You can tell it was a tabloid style article by the headline: "Drug firms poured..." >Which is about 72 per year, per person. That doesn't sound unreasonable. I would guess the average prescription is 2-4 a day per person per year.

Do you think every person, every man woman and child, has a legitimate need for 2-4 pills of narcotics each day?

Am I misunderstanding the figure? Instead of 2-4 a day per person, maybe you should calculate how many it is per person with a legitimate need for the drug.

Re: Drug firms poured 780M painkillers into WV amid rise of overdoses

#14

Post by mhuffman »

imglorp wrote: post #5

Not that pharma is angelic here, but don't the doctors have the largest measure of blame for writing unnecessary scripts, failing to monitor for abuse, and failing to encourage alternate options? I'm in favor of maximum MD power. I think they should be allowed to prescribe everything from cocaine to bleach, or any other chemical compound, as suits the patient care, if they know what they're doing. But they should als…

Well, there is also information asymmetry at play here. Patients could have legit pain, and then go to multiple doctors, without the others finding out. Then they could sell those to other people, or use them all themselves.

On the other hand, the pharmacies might know, but that could be worked around by a motivated pill-obtainer.

The pharma companies, however, definitely know that they sent 780 million painkillers to a state with only 1.8 million men, women, and children.

I am not saying it is their duty to do something about this, but maybe they have some high-level information that others do not.

I really don't see a way this could be fixed without giving every doctor in the US access to some huge database of every prescription of every person in the country -- which I would not be cool with, nor would anyone else, other than maybe law enforcement agencies.

Re: Drug firms poured 780M painkillers into WV amid rise of overdoses

#15

Post by Pigo »

chillwaves wrote: post #10
imglorp wrote: post #5

Not that pharma is angelic here, but don't the doctors have the largest measure of blame for writing unnecessary scripts, failing to monitor for abuse, and failing to encourage alternate options? I'm in favor of maximum MD power. I think they should be allowed to prescribe everything from cocaine to bleach, or any other chemical compound, as suits the patient care, if they know what they're doing. But they should als…

A more helpful line of inquiry to me is the culture of Rx usage. As a society, our patients expect drugs when they go to a doctor and a doctor's average time per patient is around 10-15 minutes. Does not seem like enough time to understand the patient's needs and create an individualized solution. Further, RX medicine is highly profitable and encouraged from the pharma. In this case it looks like they are incentives…

I feel your pain, it's scary when you're blind-sided by how deep of a pit you're in. When you realize you're probably in worse shape than the guy on the corner hustling to buy a rock, and you got it from the lady you trust your child's healthcare to. I don't know if it's a willful ignorance, or if many doctors live healthy lives and have no concept of how scarily painful withdrawal is. I can't tell you how many times I've heard it's like having the flu. If people are having flu like that, then it's amazing more people don't die every winter.

Re: Drug firms poured 780M painkillers into WV amid rise of overdoses

#16

Post by SmkyMt »

snrplfth wrote: post #4
seibelj wrote: post #3

I was expecting to write a comment advocating for personal responsibility and not rushing to judgement. Then I read this: > The unfettered shipments amount to 433 pain pills for every man, woman and child in West Virginia. That is incredible. What a damning article.

Well, 433 over six years, 2007 through 2012. Which is about 72 per year, per person. I mean, what is supposed to be done about this? Cut off WV from painkillers? Have the DEA raid a bunch of pharmacies?

Wouldn't it look different if you adjusted for the number of persons who take none? [disclaimer - self: none]

What percentage of the population 1) is taking any? 2) needs to be taking any? Not everyone has had accident/surgery/cancer/etc.

Re: Drug firms poured 780M painkillers into WV amid rise of overdoses

#17

Post by chillwaves »

dx034 wrote: post #6
1024core wrote: post #2

I think the drug dealers could learn a thing or two from our pharma industry. When I had back pain, the doctor handed me a prescription for 100 hydrocodone tablets. I took none; just some physical therapy and stretching gave me immense relief. Later, I was shocked to find out from a friend that the street value of these tablets was $5/each.

Probably more a fault of your doctor or the laws. There should be limits on that kind of painkillers, especially if you use it first time. If the doctor restricts the amount to a few days' usage, potential misuse is much easier to detect.

They could start with mandated patient education on the effects and addiction potential of these drugs, as well as a treatment plan to taper off. I had a severe injury in late 2013 and received neither of these things. We should work on the basics before pushing for more restrictions.

To expand: I had maybe 4 different doctors writing me RX for pain meds at the time and none of them were coordinating. I remember having far more drugs than I needed for the first few months -- I had prescriptions to spare. This is because I had several doctors treating me but again, none were coordinating.

Re: Drug firms poured 780M painkillers into WV amid rise of overdoses

#18

Post by snrplfth »

vkou wrote: post #11
snrplfth wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never been quite able to grasp the logic of those people who think that, while the War on Drugs is a bad idea, the FDA being able to ban whatever drugs it likes is a good idea. Either the government should have the power to ban drugs or it shouldn't, but too many people seem to want it both ways: prohibition without enforcement.

The FDA bans drugs from making unverified medical claims. That's the raison d'etre for its existence. Given the circumstances, they do a pretty damn good job of this. You can put whatever the hell you want in your non-FDA-approved snake oil supplement - but then you won't have the legitimacy of the medical establishment behind you. This legitimacy depends on your drug having verifiable, understood effects. You can't…

Well, they still destroy unapproved drugs at the border and raid places like whole milk producers and nutritional supplement makers. It's not exactly "caveat emptor" over at the FDA.

My point is really that, if somebody's solution to the problem of people overdosing on drugs is to ban them or prohibit access, then they're defacto acquiescing to the tools that make the War on Drugs possible. People seem to expect drugs they don't like to just "go away", without any of the nasty raiding and shooting.

Re: Drug firms poured 780M painkillers into WV amid rise of overdoses

#19

Post by maxerickson »

snrplfth wrote: post #8
vkou wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cut off WV from painkillers? Given the kind of logical leaps the War on Drugs takes, why not? I'm sure that someone, somewhere, in WV is getting high on pills as we speak.

I've never been quite able to grasp the logic of those people who think that, while the War on Drugs is a bad idea, the FDA being able to ban whatever drugs it likes is a good idea. Either the government should have the power to ban drugs or it shouldn't, but too many people seem to want it both ways: prohibition without enforcement.

I think there are a large number of people that simply want a different mix of prohibition and enforcement than we have today.

It doesn't take a whole lot of doublethink to want laws around marijuana relaxed while at the same time preferring to keep the FDA.

Re: Drug firms poured 780M painkillers into WV amid rise of overdoses

#20

Post by nradov »

mhuffman wrote: post #14
imglorp wrote: post #5

Not that pharma is angelic here, but don't the doctors have the largest measure of blame for writing unnecessary scripts, failing to monitor for abuse, and failing to encourage alternate options? I'm in favor of maximum MD power. I think they should be allowed to prescribe everything from cocaine to bleach, or any other chemical compound, as suits the patient care, if they know what they're doing. But they should als…

Well, there is also information asymmetry at play here. Patients could have legit pain, and then go to multiple doctors, without the others finding out. Then they could sell those to other people, or use them all themselves. On the other hand, the pharmacies might know, but that could be worked around by a motivated pill-obtainer. The pharma companies, however, definitely know that they sent 780 million painkillers t…

Between Surescripts providing centralized medication history, and statewide controlled substance prescription registries, doctors can no longer claim ignorance when dealing with drug-seeking patients. But those sources of information were spotty and incomplete up to a few years ago.
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