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Ten Years at Google

neil.fraser.name

31–40 of 73 posts

Re: Ten Years at Google

#31
post #7
post #2

OMG clicked on https://neil.fraser.name/news/2016/11/21/ (G-train link) and i just can't get past those nails..

This account has been posting mostly unsubstantive comments. Please stop and (re-)read the guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Massive apologies for doing this, but your comment confused me at first read, so...

insubstantial: lacking strength and solidity

unsubstantiated: not supported or proven by evidence

unsubstantive: not actually a word

Re: Ten Years at Google

#32
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This account has been posting mostly unsubstantive comments. Please stop and (re-)read the guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Massive apologies for doing this, but your comment confused me at first read, so... insubstantial: lacking strength and solidity unsubstantiated: not supported or proven by evidence unsubstantive: not actually a word

That's alright, clarity is important. The positive:

> Having a firm basis in reality and so important, meaningful, or considerable

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/substantive

Re: Ten Years at Google

#33
post #5

"My biggest contribution so far at Google has been Blockly." Nice - https://developers.google.com/blockly/ no real fan of google, but the tools and code churned out by individuals there is pretty interesting. This I will play with.

Something I thought about while looking at this: How come the code is made "material", but the variables and "objects" of the code are still abstract/just named? Have anybody thought about how to make the data objects more real as well?

The 'flow' is "materialized" [using your terminology] since everyday intuitions accessible to anyone can serve as guide for 'assembling' an algorithm. For objects, we are talking structure, mostly. If you require that higher level of (semantic) expressiveness it seems at odds with using something like this. We can manifest a object (or structure) as a (say) box, with slots. But if you are doing that, shouldn't you just upgrade to Python?

Re: Ten Years at Google

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"it looks horrible and cluttered and wouldn't like to look at a complex version of this over flowcharts" You are right. It looks horrible and cluttered and could be made better. Though visuals and design aside, the idea is sound. There is a real barrier b/w textual/visual in software. You don't see this in other physical disciplines like EE. It would be interesting to have a better (easier to read, standardised etc.)…

There have been very many attempts. Scratch is a pre-cursor to Blockly[0] Code.org has an in-house build on top of Blockly[1] and then there are mobile apps like Hopscotch & Tynker based on Scratch[2][3]. There's also full-fledged game engines like Stencyl[4] based on Scratch as well. To be totally honest, the whole paradigm looks cluttered and illegible to me, and I've been researching learn-to-code environments for…

"That's not to say I think it's a lost cause: I think it works great for short, 5-10 line programs. Once programs grow larger it becomes very hard to reason with, like with most VPLs."

Interesting comments. I'm not sure about the failure on larger programs. The idea of these visual languages is to allow different learning styles and a quicker way to absorb the program details into your head. The best understood programs are the ones we can hold in our heads.

Yet it isn't too hard a visual problem to show complex situations graphically. You do this with scale. EEs manage to show complex logic in circuit diagrams (and other diagrams for states) so I see no reason why more complex programs cannot be shown graphically. (cf: background in technical graphics/cartography/gis/programming).

The biggest limitation is the way programmers think. They convert textual code and parse it in their head. Aside from logic diagrams, flow charts (and others) I don't think 4GL programs have really taken off because the source code is the most efficient way to write, read and show software.

When it comes to graphics programmers don't natively grok graphics as they do text and shun such tools. I've noticed that I have to switch modes of thinking text when programming, then graphical for other things. It's a hard thing to do and the precision of programming breaks my ability to visualise and draw.

The scaling idea is simple. You have blocks of code that are represented as Blocky. As you look at more aspects of the program, you scale out and see a smaller scale view of the code represented visually. You do this with maps all the time. The complexity of the data is orders of magnitudes of the landscape is more complex with respect to software. You zoom in and out of the landscape as needed to understand, measure or picture the lay of the land.

The key thing I get from this is the union of primarily textual programmers to people wishing to visually understand has a shallow overlap.

Re: Ten Years at Google

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"it looks horrible and cluttered and wouldn't like to look at a complex version of this over flowcharts" You are right. It looks horrible and cluttered and could be made better. Though visuals and design aside, the idea is sound. There is a real barrier b/w textual/visual in software. You don't see this in other physical disciplines like EE. It would be interesting to have a better (easier to read, standardised etc.)…

There have been very many attempts. Scratch is a pre-cursor to Blockly[0] Code.org has an in-house build on top of Blockly[1] and then there are mobile apps like Hopscotch & Tynker based on Scratch[2][3]. There's also full-fledged game engines like Stencyl[4] based on Scratch as well. To be totally honest, the whole paradigm looks cluttered and illegible to me, and I've been researching learn-to-code environments for…

[deleted]

Re: Ten Years at Google

#37
This guy (Neil Fraser) wrote https://github.com/lqc/google-diff-match-patch right before joining Google, which is an incredibly useful foundational library for realtime synchronized text editing. He was very influential in open source work on realtime sync until going to work at Google, when he just sort of disappeared.

Re: Ten Years at Google

#38
Amazing to work for 10 years at one place. The only place that comes close is working for my own company back in the later 80s, early 90's. Who stays with one employer anymore these days?
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