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How Unix made it to the top

minnie.tuhs.org

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Re: How Unix made it to the top

#41

Post by TickleSteve »

lisivka wrote: post #22
JonathonW wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to get technical about it, the Mac kernel itself isn't a traditional UNIX or BSD kernel; XNU (which, conveniently enough, stands for "X is not UNIX") is a hybrid composed of the Mach microkernel, some FreeBSD components, and Apple's own driver model. The system as a whole is able to brand itself as UNIX compliant, though, because it complies with the Single UNIX Specification. That spec is concerned about…

Yep, XNU is Mach microkernel + FreeBSD kernel. Some features of XNU are even ported back to FreeBSD kernel. IMHO, that is enough to draw direct connection from XNU to original UNIX (without ™), unlike Linux kernel.

Mach microkernel + FreeBSD userland.... not kernel.

BSD is a 'personality' layer.

Re: How Unix made it to the top

#42

Post by aap_ »

deaddodo wrote: post #33
cperciva wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you define "popularity"? UNIX is found in many devices end users don't think of as being "computers" at all. The best software is the software users don't even realize is there, because it just works .

> UNIX is found in many devices end users don't think of as being "computers" at all. No, Linux is. http://kernelbook.sourceforge.net/pdf/ch-intro.pdf Some devices run BSD derivatives, but I'd still hesitate to call those Unix vs derived from Unix.

The name UNIX is just not well defined. Saying Linux is a UNIX is perfectly valid imo, but everyone has a different idea of what UNIX means.

That pdf btw has quite a few misconceptions about the history of UNIX.

Re: How Unix made it to the top

#43

Post by zokula »

lisivka wrote: post #15
nine_k wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unix kernel is hugely popular: think of the millions of Android devices. Unix userland, not so much, outside the software engineering community.

Linux is not UNIX. GNU/Linux is POSIX (common standard for UNIX'es) compatible, so it is UNIX compatible. Android/Linux is not POSIX compatible, however compatible library can be installed to Android/Linux to make it POSIX compatible, see http://stackoverflow.com/questions/27604455/is-android-posix... . *BSD, MacOS X, iOS are UNIX'es, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) .

No current open source *BSD is anymore UNIX than Linux is.

Re: How Unix made it to the top

#44

Post by kahrkunne »

hyperhopper wrote: post #3
dispose13432 wrote: post #2

I expected this to be about how Unix became so popular (_top_ of popularity charts), not to the top (_CEO_).

Well that was the intended wordplay. Although it is a shame that for end users Unix is still nowhere near the top of any popularity metric.

Am I the only one who doesn't really consider that a shame? As a happy Linux desktop user here (considering switching to FreeBSD but switching is intimidating :|), I don't really care that much what other people use.

Re: How Unix made it to the top

#45

Post by coldtea »

kgwgk wrote: post #40
coldtea wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do, and a certified one at that. Android phone's doesn't, as Linux is not technically a UNIX (doesn't derive from the original UNIX codebase in any way.

I don't think iOS is a certified UNIX, is it?

Can't say for certain, but I think it is.

I don't think iOS is anything else than OS X with a different facade (Cocoa Touch, which for UNIX doesn't matter) and a few additional services. It has all the usual POSIX interfaces (and some of the userland) underneath. So even if it violates some models (e.g. with regards to user accounts), it's still the same codebase, heralding from the BSD years.

Re: How Unix made it to the top

#46

Post by pjmlp »

xorcist wrote: post #31
pmontra wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only successful desktop UNIX derivative is MacOS. That ship has sailed. However the most relevant computing devices for consumers are phones and tablets nowadays, not desktops. UNIX derivatives run almost all of them. Big success, I'd say. UNIX derivatives are running most servers too and are making inroads into the Windows desktop. The outlook is good unless a new popular market suddenly open with no meaningful…

Chromebooks are very successful, outselling MacOS desktops in 2016. They run a pretty standard Linux environment. I don't think anyone thought Linux to take over the office desktop by mass porting office applications but by moving them to the web. That shift is still happening.

Chromebooks provide access to the underlying Linux distribution, after doing a magic incantation that the common user doesn't have any idea about.

For the non geek audience, it is a browser based OS. Google could base it in something else, and none of them would notice it.

Re: How Unix made it to the top

#47

Post by pjmlp »

zokula wrote: post #43
lisivka wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux is not UNIX. GNU/Linux is POSIX (common standard for UNIX'es) compatible, so it is UNIX compatible. Android/Linux is not POSIX compatible, however compatible library can be installed to Android/Linux to make it POSIX compatible, see http://stackoverflow.com/questions/27604455/is-android-posix... . *BSD, MacOS X, iOS are UNIX'es, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) .

No current open source *BSD is anymore UNIX than Linux is.

I doubt the BSD developers that are part of BSD since the days before the lawsuit will agree with you.

Re: How Unix made it to the top

#48

Post by ue_ »

flomo wrote: post #29

Wow. I have to say that it is funny how you hear the legendary tales of computing history over and over again and then some little crucial minor details like "we sold the CEO's office on it" eventually slip out. Ok, that was important at AT&T, but not really why Unix currently rules the universe. Due to anti-trust settlements and cheap licensing, and copyright foibles, Unix was the cheap midrange choice for students…

What sort of things could/can VMS do that Unix couldn't? I know almost nothing about computer history.

Re: How Unix made it to the top

#49

Post by yourapostasy »

flomo wrote: post #29

Wow. I have to say that it is funny how you hear the legendary tales of computing history over and over again and then some little crucial minor details like "we sold the CEO's office on it" eventually slip out. Ok, that was important at AT&T, but not really why Unix currently rules the universe. Due to anti-trust settlements and cheap licensing, and copyright foibles, Unix was the cheap midrange choice for students…

> And that is why your cell phone runs Unix and not VMS.

While this is unquestioningly accepted by the software and at large communities, for some reason "low-end manufacturing" in the US and the rest of the developed world is exempt from this logic. Somehow, we'll dispense with this pesky manufacturing economic sector, and when someone wants a "real" high-end manufactured system/product, they will end up purchasing it from these same developed world economies. We're VMS'ing ourselves to our detriment, and the developing nations are laughing all the way to the bank.

There is so much embedded knowledge that I've seen played out over and over again in different economic sectors in my paths consulting across different industries that I no longer buy this line of argument. Anyone who believes this must first prove to the disinterested observer/reader that the "low-end" they say is no longer needed is hermetically packaged to automation levels with no loss of institutional knowledge on all fronts of quality, step-wise improvements leading to innovations, environmental impact, etc.,..., in which case, we should simply automate it ourselves and retain the embedded wealth represented in that knowledge.

Re: How Unix made it to the top

#50

Post by pjmlp »

nine_k wrote: post #4
hyperhopper wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that was the intended wordplay. Although it is a shame that for end users Unix is still nowhere near the top of any popularity metric.

Unix kernel is hugely popular: think of the millions of Android devices. Unix userland, not so much, outside the software engineering community.

Have you ever used the NDK?

Android is all about Java and there is only a very thin subset of native APIs that are available, including POSIX ones.

https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/stable_apis.html

Starting with Android 7, calling anything outside of that list will terminate the application.

Google could replace the kernel for something else, while keeping those NDK APIs and only OEMs writing drivers would notice.

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