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Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

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Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#61

Post by flexie »

_andromeda_ wrote: post #43
sama wrote: post #17

We've started giving money to a small pilot group. We're still working out the kinks but expanding it slowly. The plan is still to run the pilot until we're confident everything is working well (especially with issues like making sure no one loses eligibility for income-based benefits) and then start the full-scale study.

There is no other way to define this except that it is socialism brewing here. In that light, I'd like to refer you to the words of Milton Friedman, 'If you want to learn the truth about socialism, look at how people vote with their feet'. People always leave socialist nations when their inevitable collapse occurs. Please folks, I'd like to urge you to reconsider such initiatives. Take a look at these two articles ab…

I grew up in what is generally considered an extremely successful socialist society; Denmark.

All media is fully or partially state sponsored, a third of the adult population is on some kind of welfare (incl public pension or student grants), a third of the adult population work for the government, and only a third of the adult population work in private companies, many of which derive all or a big part of their income from the domestic or foreign public sector (pharmaceuticals, clean energy, etc).

Direct and indirect taxes take huge part of income. If you wanna buy a car, taxes are roughly 180 percent plus 25 percent VAT (also VAT on the tax). Those taxes you pay with income that has already been taxed 40-60 percent.

Almost all education, health care, energy, mass transportation is public.

I left the country, but not because of the political or economic system. Quality of life in Denmark is very high and I think most Danes like the socialism of Denmark.

Other Scandinavian countries are similar and also with very high quality of life. Most European countries are to some degree also quite socialist and life there is generally good. So I think it's safe to say that socialism can work.

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#62

Post by rbg246 »

_andromeda_ wrote: post #56
tmnvix wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The incentive structure that is created when you take resources from producers to award to non-producers. I'm sorry, but this is idealogical nonsense. The classic 'non-producer' is the rentier. Quite the opposite of what you seem to be implying (i.e. that the needy are the 'non-producers').

It really isn't a question of the rentier class vs proletariat. Capitalism solved that problem a long time ago. Surely, capitalism has lifted billions from poverty. Anyone can make it if they apply effort. Anyone. There is no discrimination against hard work, smart work. A non-producer simply means, someone who is not providing a good or service of value to a willing buyer.

Your opinions are so ideological that it leaves no room for things not being binary.

Human interactions and behaviours are anything but binary. there are so many reasons why humans behave the way they do that it cannot be wrapped up so neatly as by one theory of economics.

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#63

Post by sebii »

_andromeda_ wrote: post #43
sama wrote: post #17

We've started giving money to a small pilot group. We're still working out the kinks but expanding it slowly. The plan is still to run the pilot until we're confident everything is working well (especially with issues like making sure no one loses eligibility for income-based benefits) and then start the full-scale study.

There is no other way to define this except that it is socialism brewing here. In that light, I'd like to refer you to the words of Milton Friedman, 'If you want to learn the truth about socialism, look at how people vote with their feet'. People always leave socialist nations when their inevitable collapse occurs. Please folks, I'd like to urge you to reconsider such initiatives. Take a look at these two articles ab…

Socialism is the opposite of dictatorship. It wants the democratic control from the bottom up instead of top down.

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#64

Post by _andromeda_ »

sebii wrote: post #63
_andromeda_ wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no other way to define this except that it is socialism brewing here. In that light, I'd like to refer you to the words of Milton Friedman, 'If you want to learn the truth about socialism, look at how people vote with their feet'. People always leave socialist nations when their inevitable collapse occurs. Please folks, I'd like to urge you to reconsider such initiatives. Take a look at these two articles ab…

Socialism is the opposite of dictatorship. It wants the democratic control from the bottom up instead of top down.

Really? Chairman Mau, Stalin... ring a bell?

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#65

Post by wav-part »

aninhumer wrote: post #53
wav-part wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those people are already being supported with fantastically expensive bureaucratic benefit systems. You are basically saying: We already have bad socialism so lets try good socialism . UBI is as bad if not worst. Distorted market will be least of our worries. I am in favour of guranteed, no-string-attached food & shalter.

So distorting the market by giving people money and letting them decide what they want is bad, but distorting the market by buying/producing arbitrary food and shelter for people is good?

No its lot less worse than UBI. I should point out that the Govt part would be minimal. Food & Shelter should be provided by multiple private entities under contract from Govt.

If you want to eliminate Food & Shelter Welfare as well, you would not hear any objection from me.

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#66

Post by sebii »

_andromeda_ wrote: post #64
sebii wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Socialism is the opposite of dictatorship. It wants the democratic control from the bottom up instead of top down.

Really? Chairman Mau, Stalin... ring a bell?

Which were dictators. Anytime someone claims to be a socialist, but doesn't have democratic foundation is just labeling themselves for another purpose. Socialism has many varieties. There is no singular "socialist" position on anything but this: that production and society should be controlled by the workers.

North Korea calls itself Democratic People's Republic of Korea, should I criticize democracy because North Korea calls itself this way?

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#67

Post by _andromeda_ »

rbg246 wrote: post #55
_andromeda_ wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no other way to define this except that it is socialism brewing here. In that light, I'd like to refer you to the words of Milton Friedman, 'If you want to learn the truth about socialism, look at how people vote with their feet'. People always leave socialist nations when their inevitable collapse occurs. Please folks, I'd like to urge you to reconsider such initiatives. Take a look at these two articles ab…

This is an experiment that is going to test the idea and effects of basic income. It sounds as though you have a lot of fear with the experiment being successful. Is it from a personal perspective or is it something you have been taught?

This experiment has already been done. It always fails and leaves a devastating trail of destruction every time. People die and those that don't(die) leave their countries on dangerous makeshift rafts in pursuit of capitalist nations. I implore you to look at countries that have tried re-distributing income/sustenance; they always fail. Many of them actually realise that that model is unsustainable and quickly revert to bare bones capitalism. Look at China. Look at Vietnam (which is now widely touted as the country that views capitalism most favorably).

>Is it from a personal perspective or is it something you have been taught?

I have seen immense poverty and experienced it myself though to a milder degree. So, I'm not putting forward my suggestions out of a sense of being callous, quite the opposite actually. Capitalism is the best way to solve the problem of poverty and supposed inequality. Provision of goods and services of value to others is the best way to earn an income and build a truly sustainable world.

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#68

Post by _andromeda_ »

aninhumer wrote: post #58
_andromeda_ wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really isn't a question of the rentier class vs proletariat. Capitalism solved that problem a long time ago. Surely, capitalism has lifted billions from poverty. Anyone can make it if they apply effort. Anyone. There is no discrimination against hard work, smart work. A non-producer simply means, someone who is not providing a good or service of value to a willing buyer.

>It really isn't a question of the rentier class vs proletariat. Capitalism solved that problem a long time ago. How exactly did Capitalism solve that problem? We still have stark class divisions between people who make the majority of their money from capital ownership and people who have to work to survive.

>We still have stark class divisions between people who make the majority of their money from capital ownership and people who have to work to survive.

It is true that there are divisions, but anyone can now participate in the acquisition of wealth and resources. You can save and reinvest until you attain your goals in life but most people are engaged in the consumption of capital goods such that even if they wanted to set up a small business, it gets to be increasingly difficult.

I also don't look at it in the sense that people HAVE to work to earn a living, I see it as people GET to work to earn a living. Your entire outlook on work is flawed and needs to be reevaluated. Work is good. Work allows us to eat, get shelter, clothing and move civilisation forward while at it.

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#69

Post by raarts »

robertelder wrote: post #24
home_boi wrote: post #22

There would need to be at least ~50-60 years before evaluation of the results There needs to be at least 2 generations that have had UBI for their entire life. UBI affects the motivation to work on skills, so the subject would need UBI for their entire life. The parents of the subject also needs to have UBI for their entire life because the parents could transmit the scarcity, pre-UBI mindset onto the subject. There…

I came to the same conclusion when thinking about this too. It might even make sense to counsel people too about what they can do with the extra time/money. There are a lot of amazing things to do in the world, but most people will always try to emulate their immediate environment. For some people, I would expect they would end up getting hooked on something unwholesome (drugs for example) with their newfound free ti…

Not specifically directed at you but whenever poverty is being raised I keep seeing reactions that bring up drug abuse. It's almost like they are seen as highly related.

This correlation is questionable at best.

[1] http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2012/nov/26/josep...

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#70

Post by _andromeda_ »

rbg246 wrote: post #62
_andromeda_ wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really isn't a question of the rentier class vs proletariat. Capitalism solved that problem a long time ago. Surely, capitalism has lifted billions from poverty. Anyone can make it if they apply effort. Anyone. There is no discrimination against hard work, smart work. A non-producer simply means, someone who is not providing a good or service of value to a willing buyer.

Your opinions are so ideological that it leaves no room for things not being binary. Human interactions and behaviours are anything but binary. there are so many reasons why humans behave the way they do that it cannot be wrapped up so neatly as by one theory of economics.

It is an important issue at hand. Important issues often have binary outcomes IMO. You can either make an a priori argument for or against UBI or you can make an empirical argument. We don't need to discuss previous experiences with such initiatives. They've had calamitous outcomes majority, if not all, of the times.

It does seem as though people want to try out variants of the same thing (socialism) while branding it with new terms such as UBI or social democracy. I'm simply calling out the BS and saying, it is socialism. It has been tried over and over again and I promise you that just because you've not lived through it, historical context should make you very wary of it.

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