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Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

nytimes.com

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Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#311

Post by CountSessine »

jcoffland wrote: post #302
logicallee wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how pissed would everyone be if one of these people became a millionaire through working on some business while using Finland's cash handout to finance it. even though the taxes from that is exactly what would make the whole program absolutely free - and is the basic point behind a UBI. It really is "free" for the country. A proper test of UBI has to make it available to everyone.

Why would anyone be pissed? If someone else does well how does that hurt you?

This is the same question pg asked about income inequality in general; if IPO'd founders or hedge-fund managers are mind-bogglingly-rich, why would that piss off anyone else? How does that hurt them?

And yet people are and would be pissed.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#312

Post by biobob »

aninhumer wrote: post #228
velodrome wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax Negative income tax (more emphasis) + basic income (less emphasis) would be a better system. A negative income tax would encourage people to work. Basic income by itself may just remove some barriers to working but may not result in a change (basic income > costs).

Negative Income Tax is mathematically equivalent to Basic Income, in that either can produce the same income function with the right tax bands. However, there would likely be implementation differences in practice as a consequence of their framing.

This is only when you view income in isolation. Negative Income Tax requires the person to work, while Basic Income doesn't. Moreover Negative Income Tax could support very unproductive jobs that the economy doesn't really need.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#313

Post by ggggtez »

cuppa_chris wrote: post #226
JackFr wrote: post #19

If its only going to jobless people, not UBI. This is not a meaningless distinction -- one of the features of UBI is that it is universal . If this just goes to unemployed people we cannot see the change in behavior with people who are earning close to their reservation wage. Do they stop working? This is streamlined rebranded welfare. Not a paradigm shift.

Well they're doing it for 2000 people, so I would assume this is more of a test to see what behaviour jobless people exhibit when given a basic income. They're not rolling this out nation-wide yet. I'm all in favour of UBI because I believe there simply won't be enough work for everyone. But I can understand running a study first to test the waters. 2000 people sounds like a good number too. It's expensive, but if th…

You see this is why other people run the countries. My solution to joblessness would have been to start wars in far off lands.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#314

Post by shinamee »

Personally, I think this a great thing for creatives and researchers, knowing they can spend as much time as they need to create real value for people without having to think of revenue or investors profits.

I heard/read Swiss denied this proposal though, what a shame.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#315

Post by thatfrenchguy »

CountSessine wrote: post #311
jcoffland wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would anyone be pissed? If someone else does well how does that hurt you?

This is the same question pg asked about income inequality in general; if IPO'd founders or hedge-fund managers are mind-bogglingly-rich, why would that piss off anyone else? How does that hurt them? And yet people are and would be pissed.

The fact that are super rich is awesome. The fact that there is millions of people without health care and access to good food and education is a real problem.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#316

Post by anonyfox »

Retric wrote: post #270
austinjp wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's my suspicion that the means-testing, or other hurdles, prevent the benefit from being universal, thereby preventing the inflationary effect. Incidentally, I'm not declaring a belief in either means-tested benefits nor UBI, just exploring the territory.

Money is not being created from thin air so why would you think there was inflation?

Actually, it is. States/Central Banks can print money as they wish. Go be more exact: printing isn't even necessary, money nowadays is barely more than a replicated database entry.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#317

Post by gambiting »

JackFr wrote: post #19

If its only going to jobless people, not UBI. This is not a meaningless distinction -- one of the features of UBI is that it is universal . If this just goes to unemployed people we cannot see the change in behavior with people who are earning close to their reservation wage. Do they stop working? This is streamlined rebranded welfare. Not a paradigm shift.

I'm from Poland, where recently the government introduced a "500+" program, which means that every family in the country receives 500PLN per month, per child, from the day they are born to the time when they are 18 year old.

Now, my parents run a company which mostly has physical workers - and for a physical worker, in the "poorer" part of the country, 1500PLN/per month(after taxes) is an ok salary.

The day the 500+ program started, several employees left, literally saying that they have 3-4 children, so by just getting the money from the government they will be better off than working and they don't need a job anymore. They are all jobless and living off 500+ as far as I know.

I would say that's a pretty good indication what will happen with UBI - I'm sure there's loads of people who wouldn't leave their jobs because they like having more money(me included) but for a lot of people if free money is enough to get by then that's what they are going to live on.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#318

Post by aninhumer »

biobob wrote: post #312
aninhumer wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Negative Income Tax is mathematically equivalent to Basic Income, in that either can produce the same income function with the right tax bands. However, there would likely be implementation differences in practice as a consequence of their framing.

This is only when you view income in isolation. Negative Income Tax requires the person to work, while Basic Income doesn't. Moreover Negative Income Tax could support very unproductive jobs that the economy doesn't really need.

No, NIT doesn't require people to work unless you make that a specific requirement.

For example, if you have a negative tax of 25% on income below $40k, unemployed people on $0 income will receive a $10k tax credit. This is equivalent to $10k Basic Income with a 25% tax bracket up to $40k earned income, since in both cases people earning $0 get $10k and people earning $40k get $40k.

You could make it a requirement to work, but then people could just get trivial jobs for $1 just to get the tax credit.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#319

Post by inimino »

gambiting wrote: post #317
JackFr wrote: post #19

If its only going to jobless people, not UBI. This is not a meaningless distinction -- one of the features of UBI is that it is universal . If this just goes to unemployed people we cannot see the change in behavior with people who are earning close to their reservation wage. Do they stop working? This is streamlined rebranded welfare. Not a paradigm shift.

I'm from Poland, where recently the government introduced a "500+" program, which means that every family in the country receives 500PLN per month, per child, from the day they are born to the time when they are 18 year old. Now, my parents run a company which mostly has physical workers - and for a physical worker, in the "poorer" part of the country, 1500PLN/per month(after taxes) is an ok salary. The day the 500+…

They now have free time to pursue another career, further their own education, or put more time and energy into the next generation.

The interesting question is what would happen if it was for everyone and not just those with children. Do you think this would be a bad thing?

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#320

Post by RealityVoid »

gambiting wrote: post #317
JackFr wrote: post #19

If its only going to jobless people, not UBI. This is not a meaningless distinction -- one of the features of UBI is that it is universal . If this just goes to unemployed people we cannot see the change in behavior with people who are earning close to their reservation wage. Do they stop working? This is streamlined rebranded welfare. Not a paradigm shift.

I'm from Poland, where recently the government introduced a "500+" program, which means that every family in the country receives 500PLN per month, per child, from the day they are born to the time when they are 18 year old. Now, my parents run a company which mostly has physical workers - and for a physical worker, in the "poorer" part of the country, 1500PLN/per month(after taxes) is an ok salary. The day the 500+…

And if the intended effect of UBI is lowering the need for employment, then your little anecdote seems to indicate it would work.
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