> Associating yourself with people like him will do you no good. that's called "blaming the victim". how do you not "associate" yourself with your own supervisor ??
sigh. i did not take any favors - i want my career to be built on merit and not favoritism - that is why i left the company. but do people realize that's not actually fair ? and this happens to a lot of women, not just me.
Hey, I didn't want to say that you were taking favors from the guy. I reacted to your defense of him here on HN - you initially described him as awkward and sexist but later said that he was just treating you fairly. If he was awkward there's no point pretending he wasn't. If he provoked others to hate you, there's no point pretending he didn't. It's not your fault anyway and coworkers were wrong to retaliate on you even if provoked.
And maybe my yesterday post was too harsh. I take your word that you don't want favors. But be careful with how you present this guy - I doubt that he was exactly awkward, sexist, equal and fair all at the same time :) And you wouldn't want to give appearance of rationalizing somebody who actually happens to be unfair to others, that's what I wanted to say.
> a woman would have to be foolish to create such a ruckus about "just sexism". I disagree, and that's not what I intended with my use of the word "just". It seemed to me like the poster was saying "look, no sexism here in this sub-incident" and I meant that your post wasn't just about sexism, it was about harassment.
I understand what you meant, but what I said is that public discussions on these issues are career-impacting, and usually negatively. As painful as sexism is, I don't think it is practical to make a public discussion out of it - there is usually a threshold.
What if someone posted an accusation about something you said, with scant detail and no direct quote? "One day, foldr jumped to my defense at a team event, in an awkward display of sexism." You don't feel like there should have been a quote of what you said? Or lacking that, a little more detail as to why jumping to her defense was sexist? Like, that you defended her by saying the team should lay off because she's fe…
I don't see how it would make any difference if they quoted me or not. But you are not comparing like with like here, as she did not mention any specific person.
Her supervisor is a specific person that would be easily identifiable by internal Apple employees, specifically the ones that work directly with the accused.
> Many women think nothing of finding the most powerful man in the organization they can and using him as a "friend" to undermine their direct manager I feel sorry for you.
Please don't post like this here, no matter what sort of thread we're in.
Once again, it says a lot about you that you're ok with someone being a sexist asshole but you're not ok with that being challenged.
You people should be ashamed of yourselves with your fake veneer of civility covering up racist and sexist behaviours.
I'm not entirely sure if you're saying "toughen up" is never the answer, or "firing" is never the answer. Assuming the former: It is entirely possible to misinterpret friendly ribbing or banter as something far more malicious. To assume the worst of someone who genuinely means no harm, and to suggest they should be punished, censored, and shunned. "Toughen up" is perhaps not quite the right phrasing here: It's asking…
To add further to the former category: appropriate friendly ribbing or banter definitely fall under the category of basic human dignity or respect. People cry at weddings. Not because they are sad, but because they are happy (usually). Why cry when you're happy? Studies[1] suggest that crying lowers your defenses. Similar to how salutes and handshakes were ways of demonstrating you weren't armed, you form a lot of so…
Bisby, I just can't understand how you go from a - very clearly to me - thought-through understanding of the nuances of response to targeted banter, to your apparent mind-reading of your colleague's motivations. I'm not saying that his motivations weren't bound up with a desire to move back home, but you state it with such dogmatic certainty it undoes any reasonableness your previous arguments so convincingly showed. "His goal was [...] to get his way". The assumption that your view must also be his view, and that if it is not he must be duplicitous, bespeaks a terrifying lack of imagination. Perhaps he's not the kind of guy to "say a profanity" and carry on working. Who knows? Perhaps you're right, but we just can't say. Why assume the worst of him?
What makes you think i want to talk to someone who has gross opinions about women? Fuck that. Got better things to do. (It's pretty clear you're implying that i'm a man-hater or some similar sexist bullshit. I have no idea what your problem is with me, but whatever.)
absolutely not. I made pro-feminist stances in this thread and recommended you to help deconstruct his sexist notions.
You did make some pro-feminist statements in this thread, and i upvoted them even! You also, a week and a half ago, called me a "deeply unhappy person" and suggested i was crazy. Not sure what to make of that.
I think commenters who are reacting negatively to this story are reacting to the vocabulary rather than the story. Obviously I'm not a witness, but I tend to believe that these events took place more or less as the author describes them. At the same time, words like "sexism" and phrases like "as a minority..." are a big turn-off to some readers, myself included. This isn't because I don't believe in racism/sexism/xen…
I'm not a witness to this story, but the description closely resembles two different things that happened at Apple in the late 80s and early 90s. I was acquainted with some of the people peripherally involved in both.
The story's description of Apple's response could be from people involved in those incidents. It sounds exactly the same.
sigh. i did not take any favors - i want my career to be built on merit and not favoritism - that is why i left the company. but do people realize that's not actually fair ? and this happens to a lot of women, not just me.
Hey, I didn't want to say that you were taking favors from the guy. I reacted to your defense of him here on HN - you initially described him as awkward and sexist but later said that he was just treating you fairly. If he was awkward there's no point pretending he wasn't. If he provoked others to hate you, there's no point pretending he didn't. It's not your fault anyway and coworkers were wrong to retaliate on you…
I wasn't being defensive - he WAS treating others unfairly too ... you think they would have sprung on me if he had not been an ass to them and they hadn't felt threatened ? I am thinking about following up with another post with more details about the background on that, because that's a separate discussion.
I understand what you meant, but what I said is that public discussions on these issues are career-impacting, and usually negatively. As painful as sexism is, I don't think it is practical to make a public discussion out of it - there is usually a threshold.
as a male, I'm sorry you had to endure any of it.
thanks :-) and i really do appreciate your support of me in the threads. more than one guy has defended my post for me and that has been encouraging to see :-) honestly, not all men at apple are jerks either. its just that the jerks tend to be the loudest.