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Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

nytimes.com

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Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#111

Post by user5994461 »

muse900 wrote: post #97

What is that gonna achieve exactly? Aren't prices gonna just inflate upwards and things become less affordable? If you just pay everyone X amount of money every month for whatever, it just means that in order to produce something you'll need to pay someone a lot more than that X amount in order to work and produce it and also it means that that item is gonna increase massively in cost in order to pay the items produc…

Yes. If you pay everyone the same and you wait for years for the inflation to kick in and stabilize.

it's not gonna have much effect if only a few thousands people are paid (who may already get unemployment benefits by the way).

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#112

Post by kLeeIsDead »

agumonkey wrote: post #86
kr7 wrote: post #6

Another limited duration trial (two years). What's the point? It's not going to measure the real effect. People will know it is going to run out and behave differently than if it was permanent.

What would be an acceptable limit ? 10 years ? in that span you're free to plan long project, even raise children in the same place long enough they can develop habits, friends, without too much stress.

There is no acceptable limit. It should be for life, or longer.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#113

Post by conanbatt »

muse900 wrote: post #97

What is that gonna achieve exactly? Aren't prices gonna just inflate upwards and things become less affordable? If you just pay everyone X amount of money every month for whatever, it just means that in order to produce something you'll need to pay someone a lot more than that X amount in order to work and produce it and also it means that that item is gonna increase massively in cost in order to pay the items produc…

> What is that gonna achieve exactly? Aren't prices gonna just inflate upwards and things become less affordable?

Inflation is generalized increases in prices.

I really dont understand why people make the argument that UBI would cause inflation due to demand: it would shift prices of many products (because increased demand in basic cheap goods) but probably marginally so and even then it would not affect inflation rates as a whole. High luxury cars are not going to have more demand.

> If you just pay everyone X amount of money every month for whatever, it just means that in order to produce something you'll need to pay someone a lot more than that X amount in order to work and produce it and also it means that that item is gonna increase massively in cost in order to pay the items production itself.

Outlandish claim! We dont know how its going to happen. Its not true that you have to pay more, actually you could argue you will have to pay less, as UBI supplements the income: i.e. someone that wants to make 1500U$S a month, and with UBI gets 500, might be satisfied with an easy 1000U$S job.

True, the jobs that nobody wants to do will probably have a higher premium: it gives higher leverage to every human being as they can choose not to work a bad job like garbage disposal, or cleaning up road kill. So some labor is subject to decreased supply,and others of increased demand. Its impossible to know what would happen without experimentation.

> You want to solve issues? Give free food/water and shelter for survival, thats all a human needs.

This is the exact opposite point of whats truly attractive about UBI. Free food and shelter is very expensive to give through the state ,and much cheaper to just hand out money!

For example, SF spent 241 million dollars in homeless programs in a year[1]. There are about 6,500 homeless people in SF[2]. Alternatively, the city could have given them 37k U$S cash and come out ahead, effectively putting them above the median income in the US[3]

In theory, the city could literally make the homeless people disappear overnight at no extra-expenditure.

http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/S-F-spends-record...

http://projects.sfchronicle.com/sf-homeless/numbers/ [2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_... [3]

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#114

Post by phkahler »

ScottBurson wrote: post #5

Jobless people generally cannot earn additional income while collecting unemployment benefits or they risk losing that assistance. Worst. Idea. Ever. I know -- it's a common feature of income support systems, including here in the US. I don't know whether UBI is going to prove workable or not. But even if it doesn't, if we could just redesign the systems we do have so they never give recipients a disincentive to work…

I have yet to see any mathematical model of how Ubi is supposed to work.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#115

Post by kLeeIsDead »

thwarted wrote: post #84
readittwice wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So true, thanks for writing that! Don't give them the money just for two years, but guarantee them the money over their whole life and you will see vastly different results. Another "problem" with this kind of study is that they are giving money only to unemployed people. Because it would be also interesting to see what people with jobs would do. I suspect a lot of people would switch from full-time to part-time jobs…

Don't give them the money just for two years, but guarantee them the money over their whole life and you will see vastly different results. Since people born into wealth are "guaranteed money over their whole life", can't we study what they do with their life compared to what people who are not born into money do with their life? How or how not would this kind of study produce meaningful, legitimate results? Another…

People born into wealth aren't guaranteed that. After all, it's their parents' money, not theirs.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#116

Post by lastyearman »

briandear wrote: post #88
dfraser992 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am reminded of an article I read years ago (sorry, no reference) about a low income family in Chicago (I think) during the Reagan era. The family had saved up a bit of money to send their kid to college, but some bureaucratic org found out. It was responsible for handling their benefits and because the total amount of assets the family had was over an acceptable limit, they cut out _all_ benefits to the family. Til…

Explain to me why my tax dollars should pay for other people again? I am not sure I understand why my labor must pay for others against my wishes. If I want to donate to charity, I will. Taxes should be used to pay for shared resources (roads, police, military,) but paying other people's living expenses? No thanks. America has poor and unemployed, yet Democrats seem to have no problem with illegal immigration which r…

Few reasons come to mind:

The way capitalism is designed is that not everyone can have a job. So you pay the poor not to starve and come loot your house.

Also, I believe, there was a study suggesting that more equal society is better for everyone involved, including you.

Poverty also inhibits education and I suppose you can figure out why uneducated or lowly educated society is bad.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#117

Post by omash »

rhapsodic wrote: post #15

I want to be on record here. Today, December 17, 2016, I predict that this will fail. And by "fail", I mean that this will not become a universal entitlement in Finland.

Of course this "test" will fail, they're giving it to a group of people who already have a specific state of employment. It won't be seen as a safety net to follow their ambition because of its temporary, non-universal nature. It might make sense for them to hoard the cash until the test is over or spend it lavishly as a temporary reprieve from poverty.

I hope this won't create material to make a case against basic income in future.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#118

Post by atmosx »

muse900 wrote: post #97

What is that gonna achieve exactly? Aren't prices gonna just inflate upwards and things become less affordable? If you just pay everyone X amount of money every month for whatever, it just means that in order to produce something you'll need to pay someone a lot more than that X amount in order to work and produce it and also it means that that item is gonna increase massively in cost in order to pay the items produc…

> What is that gonna achieve exactly? Aren't prices gonna just inflate upwards and things become less affordable?

It is a try to save capitalism from itself. You see, today's tech is turning entire sectors obsolete (e.g. self-driving cars). In a standard capitalistic economy, you work at XCorp who pays you (the employee) in order to be able to buy their products. This model worked in the 20th century where industries (e.g. Ford) had thousands or even millions of workers all over the place. Now we have 5-member companies running startups with millions in turnover.

Today average Joe has a very hard time finding a job that will allow him to create a family and live well and no, not everyone can become an engineer, lawyer, doctor or banker.

So, we either find a way to re-distribute wealth or we're up for a bumpy ride that will end bad for everyone...

Universal income is an idea that is making rounds and is generally accepted by modern economists (left, right and liberals) in various forms of course. The idea is that someone with rather basic needs, will spend all his income in food, shelter, clothes, etc. So, since it's nearly impossible for them to find job, just give them money to spend buying stuff, even iPhones if possible...

I believe that we're in a phase of uber-consumerism. To sustain this kind of unnatural growth, capitalism needs to find virtual ways of creating demand or we need to start exporting to mars.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#119

Post by agumonkey »

kLeeIsDead wrote: post #112
agumonkey wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be an acceptable limit ? 10 years ? in that span you're free to plan long project, even raise children in the same place long enough they can develop habits, friends, without too much stress.

There is no acceptable limit. It should be for life, or longer.

A test is a test is a test.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#120

Post by taxtaker »

koolba wrote: post #91

What's stopping people from taking their universal income and moving to a different country with a lower cost of living. Do you you have to collect it in person? A UBI of $1-2K/month isn't that much in the western world but you could live like a king[1] in the third world. [1]: Okay maybe not a very rich king but but you'd definitely be doing more than fine.

Benefits are usually contingent on residency. Go away for too long and you lose your benefits.
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