Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#31

Post by dfraser992 » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 8:47 PM UTC

TillE wrote: post #14

ScottBurson wrote: post #5

Jobless people generally cannot earn additional income while collecting unemployment benefits or they risk losing that assistance. Worst. Idea. Ever. I know -- it's a common feature of income support systems, including here in the US. I don't know whether UBI is going to prove workable or not. But even if it doesn't, if we could just redesign the systems we do have so they never give recipients a disincentive to work…

Means-tested programs are the epitome of wasteful government bureaucracy. It's never the right way to "compromise". If we can't sell straight UBI, then something like universal food stamps would be a good first step: https://web.archive.org/web/20160321083817/http://mattbrueni...

I am reminded of an article I read years ago (sorry, no reference) about a low income family in Chicago (I think) during the Reagan era. The family had saved up a bit of money to send their kid to college, but some bureaucratic org found out. It was responsible for handling their benefits and because the total amount of assets the family had was over an acceptable limit, they cut out _all_ benefits to the family. Till the bank account went down to acceptable levels.

Way to go towards helping people help themselves, encouraging middle class values, responsibility, yadda yadda, all the usual stuff Republicans blather about but don't actually care about.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#32

Post by cmurf » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 8:48 PM UTC

iopq wrote: post #25

stale2002 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, if I was offered half of my current salary (which is, admittedly high, as a software engineer) for free under the condition that I don't work, I'd totally take that deal.

And you can, if you get fired.

Uhh I think to get unemployment you have to be laid off (fired through no fault of your own). I'm not sure how you think he's getting paid 1/2 his current salary if he's fired, that sounds like $0.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#33

Post by edblarney » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 8:48 PM UTC

wjossey wrote: post #4

tl;dr Finland is going to selecting 2,000 unemployed individuals, at random, and offering them cash without strings. Current unemployment schemes, they believe, hold back individuals from finding part time work / any work because the benefits outweigh the job opportunities. They hope that this new scheme promotes people to take work and have an adequate safety net to prevent homelessness and hunger.

Why don't they just ease/remove the limitations on the current program?

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#34

Post by mistaken » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 8:48 PM UTC

rhapsodic wrote: post #15

I want to be on record here. Today, December 17, 2016, I predict that this will fail. And by "fail", I mean that this will not become a universal entitlement in Finland.

I predict the opposite. It will succeed and will be adopted by all developed nations within 50 years.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#35

Post by drallison » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 8:48 PM UTC

ScottBurson wrote: post #5

Jobless people generally cannot earn additional income while collecting unemployment benefits or they risk losing that assistance. Worst. Idea. Ever. I know -- it's a common feature of income support systems, including here in the US. I don't know whether UBI is going to prove workable or not. But even if it doesn't, if we could just redesign the systems we do have so they never give recipients a disincentive to work…

[deleted]

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#36

Post by ptaipale » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 8:53 PM UTC

ScottBurson wrote: post #5

Jobless people generally cannot earn additional income while collecting unemployment benefits or they risk losing that assistance. Worst. Idea. Ever. I know -- it's a common feature of income support systems, including here in the US. I don't know whether UBI is going to prove workable or not. But even if it doesn't, if we could just redesign the systems we do have so they never give recipients a disincentive to work…

The worst part of the unemployment benefit in Finland is not even the losing assistance if you take some job for a time. In the long run the payment will even out at least a little bit. It's the short run cash flow problem that really stops people from taking a job, as the jobseeker's allowance is cut immediately upon the employment office learning of someone having a job.

It's already a problem that the benefits are such that net income from an actual job may be negative. But even with that, people might take a temporary job to get the experience. But they cannot afford it, because getting a job cuts the benefit payment instantly, and they can't afford to wait the time that it takes the bureaucracy to resume payments.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#37

Post by cmurf » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 8:54 PM UTC

applecore wrote: post #13

dvdhnt wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So UBI is fundamentally a safety-net; insurance, if you will. The "universal" quality is that all people will be eligible for UBI. Everyone will receive the difference between what they make and what UBI guarantees. It's sort of like the popular phrase in the U.S. - "everyone is guaranteed the same opportunity but not the same outcome". Thus, while all will have access to UBI, the payout will be determined by individ…

> Everyone will receive the difference between what they make and what UBI guarantees. This isn't UBI either. UBI would simply give everyone the same income without subtracting the difference for extra earned income. You could earn millions and still receive your basic income.

Yes it's basically a credit.

I think all non-business deductions should go away and turn them into fixed credits (vanishing most of them entirely). Right now two homeowners each with $1000 in deductible mortgage interest, have different tax liability reductions if they're at different tax brackets. The one in the higher bracket actually ends up with a greater reduction in tax for the same deduction. And so on.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#38

Post by cellis » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 8:54 PM UTC

iopq wrote: post #25

stale2002 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, if I was offered half of my current salary (which is, admittedly high, as a software engineer) for free under the condition that I don't work, I'd totally take that deal.

And you can, if you get fired.

Unemployment is not quite going to be half of parent salary. More like 1/5 to 1/3 if they're lucky.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#39

Post by roflchoppa » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 8:54 PM UTC

ScottBurson wrote: post #5

Jobless people generally cannot earn additional income while collecting unemployment benefits or they risk losing that assistance. Worst. Idea. Ever. I know -- it's a common feature of income support systems, including here in the US. I don't know whether UBI is going to prove workable or not. But even if it doesn't, if we could just redesign the systems we do have so they never give recipients a disincentive to work…

yeah its a little bit counter intuitive, I would think that it would not be financially stable to have the entire income of a population given to them. Rather it could be a lesser amount of money that would assist, rather than replace their current income.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#40

Post by zzalpha » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 8:54 PM UTC

applecore wrote: post #13

dvdhnt wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So UBI is fundamentally a safety-net; insurance, if you will. The "universal" quality is that all people will be eligible for UBI. Everyone will receive the difference between what they make and what UBI guarantees. It's sort of like the popular phrase in the U.S. - "everyone is guaranteed the same opportunity but not the same outcome". Thus, while all will have access to UBI, the payout will be determined by individ…

> Everyone will receive the difference between what they make and what UBI guarantees. This isn't UBI either. UBI would simply give everyone the same income without subtracting the difference for extra earned income. You could earn millions and still receive your basic income.

As you define it.

I define UBI as having a floor on people's income, where the government ensures everyone is above that floor. So it's universally ensuring everyone had a basic income.