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American Firms Want to Keep Older Workers a Bit Longer

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Re: American Firms Want to Keep Older Workers a Bit Longer

#91

Post by petre »

citruspi wrote: post #63
petre wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did you expect? India has a huge population. They all need jobs to support their families. So the local gov't has it covered. Would you prefer three of those five people being engaged in a riot and the other two, on gov't payroll, beating the shit out of them? I guess this pretty much ilustrates the difference between East and West. Mr. Rushdie has a book with short stories on that.

> India has a huge population. They all need jobs to support their families. So the local gov't has it covered. Yup, completely agree. > Would you prefer three of those five people being engaged in a riot and the other two, on gov't payroll, beating the shit out of them? To clarify, in this scenario, are you saying that there are three unemployed people rioting and two other people on a government payroll (presumably…

I doubt basic income would work. People with too much time on their hands will riot anyway, eventually. Work keeps people busy, even if it's low paid work, provided work conditions are okay.

East, West is a nice collection of short stories that would give you a taste of his writing style. Also The Groung Beneath her Feet is quite popular.

Re: American Firms Want to Keep Older Workers a Bit Longer

#92

Post by randomdata »

mooreds wrote: post #88
randomdata wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shortage is defined as a situation where price cannot rise, such as the government setting a price ceiling. If price can rise then a shortage is impossible.

> If price can rise then a shortage is impossible. In the long term I agree. In the short term, the markets are not perfect and goods and labor are not perfectly fungible. It takes time to retool, even if prices are sending signals.

While your points are certainly true, I'm not sure that state is characterized by shortage. Shortage occurs when price does not rise. When price does rise, demand wanes.

Hypothetically, if there was only one programmer in the world, the price would rise to the point where that programmer is no longer willing to change jobs with the offers being given. At that point, the additional demand goes away. Those businesses are no longer in the market for a programmer. It really doesn't matter if it takes time to retool, as far as shortages go, because the demand has met the supply. A shortage does not mean not being able to get what you want at a price you are willing to pay.

On the other hand, where I come from the government sets the price that doctors must charge. We really can run into the issue of doctor shortages. I can't go to my doctor and say, "I know you are completely booked and can't see me, but here is $100,000 above your regular rate to cancel those appointments and take care of me instead". The doctor is required, by law, to reject my offer.

If price was able to rise, the doctor would be able to take my offer, allowing me to get what I want as indicated by price, and those who aren't willing to pay $100K more to have the doctor look at their common cold exit the market. Equilibrium is reached. That scenario certainly comes with its own set of issues – and why our government defines the price to not allow market-based preferential treatment – the issue would not be that of a shortage.

Re: American Firms Want to Keep Older Workers a Bit Longer

#93

Post by cauterized »

randomdata wrote: post #83
cauterized wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if right at this moment the world had only enough doctors to care for half the population, regardless of the price, that wouldn't be a shortage of doctors? If there were a severe drought and only enough food to keep half of us alive, but prices weren't capped... That wouldn't be a food shortage? If there are only 10,000 people in a field who are under the age of 70 but have at least 20 years of experience, and the…

> So if right at this moment the world had only enough doctors to care for half the population, regardless of the price, that wouldn't be a shortage of doctors? Doctors may not be the best example. Where I live, at least, the government really does set a price ceiling for doctors, so a shortage is very much possible. Ignoring that, simply not being able to afford a doctor does not mean there is a shortage of them. Th…

That seems to me like a strange, limited, and impractical definition of a shortage.

When the supply of something is insufficient to support effective operation (or to support existing life), that's a shortage.

Yes, perhaps prices will rise until no more people can afford it than the supply will support. But perhaps that supply isn't enough to keep the industry from collapsing or to keep the population from collapsing, etc.

Regardless of whether the price rises to keep the resource out of the hands of everyone who needs it, the insufficient supply for effective function is still damaging - to a population, an industry, an economy. I would most definitely consider that a shortage.

Re: American Firms Want to Keep Older Workers a Bit Longer

#94

Post by randomdata »

cauterized wrote: post #93
randomdata wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So if right at this moment the world had only enough doctors to care for half the population, regardless of the price, that wouldn't be a shortage of doctors? Doctors may not be the best example. Where I live, at least, the government really does set a price ceiling for doctors, so a shortage is very much possible. Ignoring that, simply not being able to afford a doctor does not mean there is a shortage of them. Th…

That seems to me like a strange, limited, and impractical definition of a shortage. When the supply of something is insufficient to support effective operation (or to support existing life), that's a shortage. Yes, perhaps prices will rise until no more people can afford it than the supply will support. But perhaps that supply isn't enough to keep the industry from collapsing or to keep the population from collapsing…

> That seems to me like a strange, limited, and impractical definition of a shortage.

Well, that's its definition, for better or worse. I didn't write the economics dictionary. I only can repeat it.

Is there reason to overload this particular word? While the implications of the scenarios you describe are clear, I'm not sure why it has to be "shortage" that represents it. Why not another word or term that encompasses those cases – unaffordable, perhaps – while leaving shortage to mean what it means?

Re: American Firms Want to Keep Older Workers a Bit Longer

#95

Post by mooreds »

randomdata wrote: post #92
mooreds wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If price can rise then a shortage is impossible. In the long term I agree. In the short term, the markets are not perfect and goods and labor are not perfectly fungible. It takes time to retool, even if prices are sending signals.

While your points are certainly true, I'm not sure that state is characterized by shortage. Shortage occurs when price does not rise. When price does rise, demand wanes. Hypothetically, if there was only one programmer in the world, the price would rise to the point where that programmer is no longer willing to change jobs with the offers being given. At that point, the additional demand goes away. Those businesses a…

I'm not arguing that government action can prevent prices from rising and that such activity can cause shortages. I agree with your arguments about the doctors.

What I'm arguing is that, because many goods (in particular labor) aren't fungible and liquid, that an increasing price doesn't (in the short term) solve shortages with these types of goods.

Re: American Firms Want to Keep Older Workers a Bit Longer

#96

Post by cauterized »

randomdata wrote: post #94
cauterized wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems to me like a strange, limited, and impractical definition of a shortage. When the supply of something is insufficient to support effective operation (or to support existing life), that's a shortage. Yes, perhaps prices will rise until no more people can afford it than the supply will support. But perhaps that supply isn't enough to keep the industry from collapsing or to keep the population from collapsing…

> That seems to me like a strange, limited, and impractical definition of a shortage. Well, that's its definition, for better or worse. I didn't write the economics dictionary. I only can repeat it. Is there reason to overload this particular word? While the implications of the scenarios you describe are clear, I'm not sure why it has to be "shortage" that represents it. Why not another word or term that encompasses…

Why not let "shortage" have a vernacular meaning too? One that it already had before the field of economics adopted it for a more specific purpose?

Re: American Firms Want to Keep Older Workers a Bit Longer

#97

Post by yarou »

dang wrote: post #55
yarou wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, I meant socialism is a great system where everyone is equal! In fact it's so equal, that I want you to have sex with my wife.

You've posted many uncivil and/or unsubstantive comments to HN, and we've had to warn you about this more than once before. I actually just banned your account for this, but on reflection, decided to unban you since many of your comments are also the civil, substantive kind. The latter are the kind we want here. Would you please restrict yourself to those? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news…

Sorry dang. I now realize that not everyone can appreciate my unique take on satire.

Re: American Firms Want to Keep Older Workers a Bit Longer

#98

Post by linkregister »

analog31 wrote: post #79
NegativeLatency wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What industry is that?

We make electronic measurement instruments. "Back in the day," sophisticated instruments evolved from laboratory curiosities to industrial products, but still required experts to set up, operate, and in some cases program.

Something like high-end Fluke or Agilent kit? Those are some really nice rigs.
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