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Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

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Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#621
I can't be certain whether this affected this particular case at all, but note that Northern Indian English isn't American or British English. The vocabulary is similar (not in fact identical), but emphasis of all kinds is handled entirely differently. In fact, oppositely. In Hindi and Northern Indian English PAUSES show emphasis, whereas increases in volume (for a given word) are syntactically determined and have absolutely no semantic meaning or significance whatsoever.

In American English, pauses are almost always mechanically/syntactically determined and carry no meaning, but increasing the volume for a given word shows emphasis. This EASILY leads to extreme and sudden misunderstandings in both directions, as each side sees very obvious sarcasm and emphasis where none was intended. They're both sure they're right and that they are speaking the same language, but outside of print, these are two separate languages.

Since it's more recent, the Northern Indian English vocabulary has a cleaner logic, so personally if I had to chose just one, I'd go with that, but that's neither here nor there.

Long years ago, I attended a lecture by, I believe, the first scholar to experimentally demonstrate this and publish it; and the recorded examples of ordinary real-life interactions (not staged) taking place in British businesses that he used to illustrate the lecture were extremely striking; in fact very explosive.

In case this seems like something anyone would notice - in fact it's beneath notice. Similarly, the semantic use of tones in Chinese was denied by scholars there for something like hundreds of years, before finally being acknowledged. Language is handled unconsciously for the most part.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#622
post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? You did actually say this: > One day, one of my supervisors jumped to my defense at a team event, in an awkward display of sexism. He was treating you with respect and you think it was sexist? As a male manager of female employees, what am I even supposed to do?

> what am I even supposed to do? Extracting information from self-contradictory accounts is a bit of a black art, but this being said my guess is that he actually did something to deserve these labels just the OP isn't comfortable discussing it in detail. So calm down :)

>just the OP isn't comfortable discussing it in detail

I have to say, if the OP is comfortable in making these very grave accusations but not comfortable enough to explain what happened but just to give her assessment of the situation; it doesn't do her credibility any good.

There are a number of red flags noted throughout the comments, and much of this criticism has been met with "omg so horrible you have to believe the victim". This is a very worrying trend that will only lead to polarizing individuals into either of the hate camps; where those that rush to sympathize will create fertile grounds for false accusations and those who feel are being deceived are going to be desbelieving of actual victims.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#623
post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the "You don't have to work there" argument isn't ok here, but it's ok for pretty much any other facet of the job? I mean, when someone talks about conditions with Uber drivers or Instacart shoppers, the number one dismissal is always "you don't have to work there". Why is that acceptable there, but not here?

When a supplier is granted monopoly power by the state (as unions are), it's perfectly reasonable to impose additional restrictions on them. That's why Cable/Telecoms need to negotiate with regulators to change prices, but Joe's Pizza can charge $20/slice if they want. Joe's Pizza lives in a competitive market and if Joe abuses customers, Mario will show up and sell Pizza on better terms. The same is not true if Comc…

You're not addressing my point. You're kinda just reinforcing the idea that "You don't have to work there" is ok to tell, say, Uber drivers, but not ok to tell you regarding a company having a union.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#624
post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So when people say no one believes women when they say there are problems , and at the same time, there are huge public awareness campaigns, I have to point out the inherent contradiction involved. Everything I see in the media is that there are not only huge awareness campaigns, but that when something does happen, there are also huge outcries about it.

look at the skeptics in this thread as an example .. does it give you a warm and fuzzy ? this is a stressful thread to read.

We are complete strangers to the situation, we are only hearing one side of the story, and now we're the bad guys because we don't take 100% of what you said for granted?.

I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, as sexism is undoubtedly a real issue in our society and our industry, but every other comment I read of yours makes it ever closer to a textbook case of a baseless accusation made to get back at someone you didn't like, and I'm ready to be conclusive about this. Do you realize how much this impacts all future cries for help from women being grossly mistreated because of their gender? My SO is going into engineering and it boils my blood to think how much people are willing to abuse the system until she can no longer be protected by it and we're back to the 1950's.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you an adrienne need to have a talk

What makes you think i want to talk to someone who has gross opinions about women? Fuck that. Got better things to do. (It's pretty clear you're implying that i'm a man-hater or some similar sexist bullshit. I have no idea what your problem is with me, but whatever.)

absolutely not. I made pro-feminist stances in this thread and recommended you to help deconstruct his sexist notions.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#626
post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When a supplier is granted monopoly power by the state (as unions are), it's perfectly reasonable to impose additional restrictions on them. That's why Cable/Telecoms need to negotiate with regulators to change prices, but Joe's Pizza can charge $20/slice if they want. Joe's Pizza lives in a competitive market and if Joe abuses customers, Mario will show up and sell Pizza on better terms. The same is not true if Comc…

You're not addressing my point. You're kinda just reinforcing the idea that "You don't have to work there" is ok to tell, say, Uber drivers, but not ok to tell you regarding a company having a union.

I am addressing your point. When you have a non-competitive market - e.g. yellow cabs prior to Uber, employment under current union rules - you often need extra regulation to protect people.

If we want to create a competitive market - one where unions have no special legal powers, and employers can stop doing business with them if they choose - then eliminating these worker and employer protections might make sense.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont think you read her blog post. she wasn't just treated in a sexist manner. That sparked the issue, which turned into alleged bullying an harassment by most of her team. You dont have to be a woman to understand how badly that would suck.

thanks for the defense. a woman would have to be foolish to create such a ruckus about "just sexism". we just suck that part up as part of our jobs.

> a woman would have to be foolish to create such a ruckus about "just sexism".

I disagree, and that's not what I intended with my use of the word "just". It seemed to me like the poster was saying "look, no sexism here in this sub-incident" and I meant that your post wasn't just about sexism, it was about harassment.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thanks for the defense. a woman would have to be foolish to create such a ruckus about "just sexism". we just suck that part up as part of our jobs.

> a woman would have to be foolish to create such a ruckus about "just sexism". I disagree, and that's not what I intended with my use of the word "just". It seemed to me like the poster was saying "look, no sexism here in this sub-incident" and I meant that your post wasn't just about sexism, it was about harassment.

I understand what you meant, but what I said is that public discussions on these issues are career-impacting, and usually negatively. As painful as sexism is, I don't think it is practical to make a public discussion out of it - there is usually a threshold.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#629
post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what am I even supposed to do? Extracting information from self-contradictory accounts is a bit of a black art, but this being said my guess is that he actually did something to deserve these labels just the OP isn't comfortable discussing it in detail. So calm down :)

>just the OP isn't comfortable discussing it in detail I have to say, if the OP is comfortable in making these very grave accusations but not comfortable enough to explain what happened but just to give her assessment of the situation; it doesn't do her credibility any good. There are a number of red flags noted throughout the comments, and much of this criticism has been met with "omg so horrible you have to believe…

is the fact that Apple thought to issue me an apology not enough proof that I am not making things up ?

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the thing about questioning, I understand innocent until proven guilty, but putting the onus of everything on the victim is pretty unfair ..

Curious as to your thoughts on official corporate surveillance on employees in context of this sort of she said/he said situations.

If things happen in places that have cameras, maybe it is helpful. But otherwise ? These things just happen - they cannot really be anticipated.
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