I have no side code projects to show • Hacker News Board

Re: I have no side code projects to show

#91

Post by highCs » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 4:33 AM UTC

I agree with the author. You can't judge the passion of someone by his behaviour, that's silly. You can be as well a passionate programmer when you don't code home than when you do.

However, coding home has one - big - perk: it's almost the only way for you to code something from scratch. Alone. You and your code. You and your progress rate. You and your bugs. You and your choices. You and your mess. Nobody to smooth any angle.

I believe coding from scratch - alone - makes you a completely different kind of programmer indeed. But it has nothing to do with passion. Nothing at all.

I think (I can be wrong, still trying to validate that) that "number of projects from scratch" is the metric that tells the ultimate level of a programmer. In other words, if you've almost never coded anything from scratch (below say 40-50 projects), I do believe you are not very good at programming. Conversely, I know from experience (my own) that coding from scratch can make you so good, that you would find Amazon SDEs complete novices (I know from my own experience at amazon) and this before your 30's. It can make you better than principal engineers before your 30's. It can make you so good that TDD, OOP and agile development sounds like novice exercises to you. It can make you a programming master and beyond.

Could you be as good without coding from scratch really? Well, ultimately maybe but not as fast. Coding from scratch is so painful, so hard, so stressful, so frustrating that maintaining code or adding small to medium sized features is a baby step in comparison. Now of course, if you add something pretty big to an existing code base or make a god damn big refactor, you're doing the same thing as coding from scratch basically. The thing is that it's rare you 1) add that big a feature to an existing codebase 2) alone, in a big company.

I'm pretty sure the author has passion for programming, probably as big as anyone else. And balanced life is good for skills as feeling great makes you more creative amongst other thing. It's just that coding home makes you write a type of code that is 100 times more difficult than the one you do in big companies. Paradoxically, I'm pretty sure interviewers don't, at least consciously, know that.

Re: I have no side code projects to show

#92

Post by eridius » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 4:35 AM UTC

dandv wrote: post #88

derekp7 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if you have any other interests, such as rebuilding old cars, would that boss still have a problem with it? That is the thing I don't get, is how some companies see a big difference between regular hobbies and programing related hobbies.

[Google owns any IP you develop, even on your own time]( http://startups.stackexchange.com/questions/7822/working-leg... ), and you can't easily work on those interview-worthy side projects after you get hired.

That's not necessarily true. Companies certainly like to advocate for the idea that they automatically own any work you do that's relevant to any of their business interests, even if that work isn't relevant to your particular job. But that doesn't mean it'll hold up in court. Just a couple of days ago I was reading something about how courts regularly side with employees instead of employers in disputes like this, how they tend to interpret that as only applying to work relevant to the employee's job and not to other parts of the company. Unfortunately I don't remember where I was reading that, so I can't go find it again.

Of course, take this with a massive grain of salt. I'd certainly prefer not to have to go to court to try and figure out if this is actually true.

Re: I have no side code projects to show

#93

Post by framebit » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 4:38 AM UTC

jknoepfler wrote: post #38

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People fail fizz buzz all the time.

I don't believe that. I'd really like a 21st century study showing that devs with > 3 years of experience fail fizz buzz, and that failure is predictive of being a bad developer (and not being a shitty interviewer)

Yes, of course a dev with > 3 years experience should be able to fizz-buzz in their sleep! That's the point!

It's not devs with > 3 years experience or even > 6 months. failing fizzbuzz. It's people _pretending_ to be devs with > 3 years experience. Or folks who started in programming years ago and drifted so far they can't get back to nuts and bolts. Or people who know the principles but can't express them. Or any number of other cases.

Like other folks have posted here in response, I've seen some really sad fizz buzzes in my day, often from people who had no business being near a computer let alone interviewing for a tech job, but somehow landed a phone screen.

And let's never forget the best/worst fizz-buzz ever: http://thedailywtf.com/articles/The-Fizz-Buzz-from-Outer-Spa...

Re: I have no side code projects to show

#94

Post by IndianAstronaut » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 4:43 AM UTC

otakucode wrote: post #87

dvcrn wrote: post #13

Here's a little example what happened to me: I interviewed with a company. Naturally they asked for my side projects which I showed them. We talked about technical challenges, scaling, interesting bits of codes - all these kind of things. They were really excited. I passed the interviews and got the job. Fast forward a couple month, still working on my side projects, some of which started generating a couple hundred…

It depends on your point of view. The boss wants the most sophisticated talent he can get, and he doesn't want to pay anything for it. Every penny he pays, and every second of your life he doesn't get for it, is a failure in his eyes. Since the 1980s, employment has become a game. Employers don't like it if you realize this and play them right back, of course, but there's not really any other option. Their viewpoint…

I thought it was me. But now I see each job as a place where I grow my skills. I actively pick projects where I gain more technical skolls over those where I develop internal company knowledge.

Re: I have no side code projects to show

#95

Post by summadat » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 4:45 AM UTC

otakucode wrote: post #87

dvcrn wrote: post #13

Here's a little example what happened to me: I interviewed with a company. Naturally they asked for my side projects which I showed them. We talked about technical challenges, scaling, interesting bits of codes - all these kind of things. They were really excited. I passed the interviews and got the job. Fast forward a couple month, still working on my side projects, some of which started generating a couple hundred…

It depends on your point of view. The boss wants the most sophisticated talent he can get, and he doesn't want to pay anything for it. Every penny he pays, and every second of your life he doesn't get for it, is a failure in his eyes. Since the 1980s, employment has become a game. Employers don't like it if you realize this and play them right back, of course, but there's not really any other option. Their viewpoint…

"fuck the game, don't let the game fuck you"

Re: I have no side code projects to show

#96

Post by RCortex » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 4:48 AM UTC

otakucode wrote: post #87

dvcrn wrote: post #13

Here's a little example what happened to me: I interviewed with a company. Naturally they asked for my side projects which I showed them. We talked about technical challenges, scaling, interesting bits of codes - all these kind of things. They were really excited. I passed the interviews and got the job. Fast forward a couple month, still working on my side projects, some of which started generating a couple hundred…

It depends on your point of view. The boss wants the most sophisticated talent he can get, and he doesn't want to pay anything for it. Every penny he pays, and every second of your life he doesn't get for it, is a failure in his eyes. Since the 1980s, employment has become a game. Employers don't like it if you realize this and play them right back, of course, but there's not really any other option. Their viewpoint…

Do you have any recommendations for books for managers written by managers? The last book I skimmed on this topic was "The Alliance," by some people at linkedIn. According to one of the reviews on amazon it mainly just talks about industry-wide blacklists for employees if they leave their jobs for a better one.

Re: I have no side code projects to show

#97

Post by IndianAstronaut » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 4:52 AM UTC

ajmurmann wrote: post #77

jknoepfler wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, I'm a skilled dev with only a smattering of python experience, but if you asked me this question I'd have no idea and wouldn't think twice about looking up the python docs for both. What are you actually asking? P.s. I don't believe anyone actually fails fizz buzz.

I suspect failing fizz buzz typically is caused by nervousness. I've one gotten so nervous in an interview that I'm certain I couldn't have implemented fizz buzz either at that time. I've also seen it on interviewees. As the interviewer it also sucks because you can't be sure it's nervousness.

If someone is the type of person that gets nervous in an interview, these are the people that really need to do good side projects.

Re: I have no side code projects to show

#98

Post by Thorncorona » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 4:59 AM UTC

timdev2 wrote: post #84

droithomme wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most, but not all people who are employed have contracts which assign ownership of everything they do, including in their spare time at home on their own equipment, to their employer. And yes, a very small number of states consider such standard clauses to be unenforceable. Most candidates who show their previous code, either written for their employer, or from side projects that are still within the scope of their c…

Most employers who include such clauses and aren't open to negotiation are violating common decency. Any company so incredibly tone-deaf is likely an unpleasant employer that thinks nothing of treating their employees poorly. Such companies should not be serviced by professionals.

That doesn't make his point moot though.

Re: I have no side code projects to show

#99

Post by Sacho » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 5:05 AM UTC

jknoepfler wrote: post #38

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People fail fizz buzz all the time.

I don't believe that. I'd really like a 21st century study showing that devs with > 3 years of experience fail fizz buzz, and that failure is predictive of being a bad developer (and not being a shitty interviewer)

You don't have to believe it - check out the comments in Jeff Atwood's post, where many people assert they can't believe people can't solve FizzBuzz, look they've solved it right here, and post their incorrect solutions.

Re: I have no side code projects to show

#100

Post by mrep » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 5:08 AM UTC

jknoepfler wrote: post #38

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People fail fizz buzz all the time.

I don't believe that. I'd really like a 21st century study showing that devs with > 3 years of experience fail fizz buzz, and that failure is predictive of being a bad developer (and not being a shitty interviewer)

One of my teammates had a phone screen with a guy who didn't know what prime numbers were...