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Show HN: Hire an Oldster

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Re: Show HN: Hire an Oldster

#251

Post by ajmurmann »

aresant wrote: post #42

If you take a survey of hiring managers they will point to three primary reasons that candidates 40 - 60 have a harder time finding jobs: 1) They are typically more expensive than "market" for the same role a younger person can fulfill at acceptable tradeoff of competency - higher salaries, higher related costs like healthcare for a family, expectations around retirement programs, etc. 2) They are less flexible - the…

>"They have less primary & secondary education relevant to today's enterprise issues"

What primary and secondary education that gets out of date matters much for a software developer? Algorithms, complexity etc. don't change much. The technology changes so much and is do vast that what fresh graduates know won't help much.

The only thing I as a hiring manager value about a university degree is that it signals that you have enough discipline to see something through even if you don't always like it. There are plenty of people who can't or don't want to do that. If you can't do that no amount of smarts is gonna make me want to hire you.

Re: Show HN: Hire an Oldster

#252

Post by sudosteph »

beachstartup wrote: post #92
aresant wrote: post #42

If you take a survey of hiring managers they will point to three primary reasons that candidates 40 - 60 have a harder time finding jobs: 1) They are typically more expensive than "market" for the same role a younger person can fulfill at acceptable tradeoff of competency - higher salaries, higher related costs like healthcare for a family, expectations around retirement programs, etc. 2) They are less flexible - the…

the boom in "old geek" job boards is the market correcting itself. smaller companies have known about it for a LONG time, because we don't have access to the genius-level kids that churn out code 80 hours a week. tough luck for us, too bad, so sad. our team is exclusively 35-60. i wouldn't hire a non-genius 25 year old to run anything critical. nope, no way. sorry, kids.

I hope you don't use AWS then. Just because you don't see 25 year-olds as competent adults doesn't mean that plenty of other places aren't using them in critical roles to great effect.

Though maybe you have a really loose definition of genius?

Re: Show HN: Hire an Oldster

#253

Post by aaronblohowiak »

flukus wrote: post #198
digler999 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He saw object oriented programming as snake oil and a passing fad for how long ? I dont blame him for reading about C++ in 1989 and saying "hrmmmf! hogwash!". But in 1995 ? in 2000 ? It sounds like he got set in his ways, and how is that NOT an "age problem" ? I'm also 32, and I'm getting slightly more set in my ways as I get older. > he begrudgingly learned Java/C#/JavaScript/SQL and took a major pay/prestige cut…

I've got a year on you and I think I'd agree that OO is snake oil. The worst code bases I've ever seen (and I've seen some horrors) have been from over used inheritance and mixing logic and data. Provided you avoid global state (also a problem with OO) I think a c program would be more understandable than a lot of java/c# ones. Not to say there aren't useful features, that would go well with a language like c, like i…

You would probably enjoy Go, for the most part.

Re: Show HN: Hire an Oldster

#254

Post by HCIdivision17 »

zackmorris wrote: post #200
HCIdivision17 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a weird experience if you're a clever youngster. I liken it to speed vs torque. I have to rely on being fast and being able to scan a problem as fast as I can to understand it. But an older engineer will just know the lay of the land. I had this happen a lot with an older electrical engineer. He seemed slow and I looked to run circles around everyone, but he could point to things as a root cause before I even un…

I'm on the opposite end of this as I'm pushing 40. It's like speed chess vs chess over snail mail. I tend to see all the way to the end of a problem within moments of hearing about it, already formulating solutions to edge cases 10 steps ahead while others seem to ask almost quaint questions about the first step. They spin very quickly while I don't appear to be doing anything at all, yet I often go completely around…

My friend would always talk about old war stories. And he'd repeat too :) But his son said jokingly over lunch with him, "Always suffer an old geek." And I've never regretted it.

Keep trying to share what you know. He couldn't figure how to teach what he knows either, but really I think mentorship is more about showing and sharing. You'll find someone who appreciates the skill, and you'll be that guy who sets them on track for their career.

Also kudos on the name memory; I have been well instructed by every good engineer that clearly mirroring people's name back. I don't, but I see how much that helps (just wish I could memorize labels).

Re: Show HN: Hire an Oldster

#255

Post by Shanea93 »

beachstartup wrote: post #92
aresant wrote: post #42

If you take a survey of hiring managers they will point to three primary reasons that candidates 40 - 60 have a harder time finding jobs: 1) They are typically more expensive than "market" for the same role a younger person can fulfill at acceptable tradeoff of competency - higher salaries, higher related costs like healthcare for a family, expectations around retirement programs, etc. 2) They are less flexible - the…

the boom in "old geek" job boards is the market correcting itself. smaller companies have known about it for a LONG time, because we don't have access to the genius-level kids that churn out code 80 hours a week. tough luck for us, too bad, so sad. our team is exclusively 35-60. i wouldn't hire a non-genius 25 year old to run anything critical. nope, no way. sorry, kids.

That's just another form of age discrimination and is just as bad as the people who refuse to hire old people.

Re: Show HN: Hire an Oldster

#257

Post by beachstartup »

Shanea93 wrote: post #255
beachstartup wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the boom in "old geek" job boards is the market correcting itself. smaller companies have known about it for a LONG time, because we don't have access to the genius-level kids that churn out code 80 hours a week. tough luck for us, too bad, so sad. our team is exclusively 35-60. i wouldn't hire a non-genius 25 year old to run anything critical. nope, no way. sorry, kids.

That's just another form of age discrimination and is just as bad as the people who refuse to hire old people.

yeah, i guess it is.

Re: Show HN: Hire an Oldster

#258

Post by beachstartup »

sudosteph wrote: post #252
beachstartup wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the boom in "old geek" job boards is the market correcting itself. smaller companies have known about it for a LONG time, because we don't have access to the genius-level kids that churn out code 80 hours a week. tough luck for us, too bad, so sad. our team is exclusively 35-60. i wouldn't hire a non-genius 25 year old to run anything critical. nope, no way. sorry, kids.

I hope you don't use AWS then. Just because you don't see 25 year-olds as competent adults doesn't mean that plenty of other places aren't using them in critical roles to great effect. Though maybe you have a really loose definition of genius?

> I hope you don't use AWS then

wait, how'd you know??

Re: Show HN: Hire an Oldster

#259

Post by gooseyard »

zackmorris wrote: post #200
HCIdivision17 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a weird experience if you're a clever youngster. I liken it to speed vs torque. I have to rely on being fast and being able to scan a problem as fast as I can to understand it. But an older engineer will just know the lay of the land. I had this happen a lot with an older electrical engineer. He seemed slow and I looked to run circles around everyone, but he could point to things as a root cause before I even un…

I'm on the opposite end of this as I'm pushing 40. It's like speed chess vs chess over snail mail. I tend to see all the way to the end of a problem within moments of hearing about it, already formulating solutions to edge cases 10 steps ahead while others seem to ask almost quaint questions about the first step. They spin very quickly while I don't appear to be doing anything at all, yet I often go completely around…

I wonder often how often cliquishness gets interpreted as agism, but in either case, being an aging white male in the tech business has given me a new perspective on the merits of workplace diversity :)

Re: Show HN: Hire an Oldster

#260

Post by BatFastard »

robotresearcher wrote: post #114
marcell wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is a PE?

Professional Engineer. It's an anointed position from an association of engineers, like an old-time guild. There's a duty to mentor youngsters, and a requirement for youngsters to spend time being mentored before getting PE status themselves.

I don't believe the concept of PE extends to software. I know its true for architecture, you need a PE to sign off on big structures.

I would LOVE to have it in software.

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