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Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

nytimes.com

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Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#111

Post by ozy »

milesf wrote: post #109
sago wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good faith meaning, an honest attempt. It's not an insult to apologetics that they don't. As I said (and as CARM's front page declares) its mission is to defend and justify Christian doctrine, not to investigate whether it is correct. I think you'd be better off rejecting the premise of the original comment (why falsification is important), than you would trying to argue that apologetics operates that way.

Well, I'm 47 now and have had the open challenge since 1990 that if anyone can show me that the Bible is not what it purports to be, then I will have to renounce my faith and search elsewhere. I think that qualifies as an honest attempt :) I'm also not convinced that falsification is the be-all, end-all to deriving meaning. I think it's a very useful tool, but it has its flaws. Looks like we will have to agree to dis…

That is a challenge ;) I am not sure what you think the bible is though. But here are a few things.

The bible predicts the earth is set on pillars (Job). But it is not.

The bible says man was made in gods image, etc. So it is really surprising we can find fossil records from monkeys to humans, and find lots of Neanderthals and Denisovans.

Jesus never heals any mentally handicapped people, as a matter of fact, they seem to be left out of the bible. But he does drive out demons. Is that god misdiagnosing people?

The bible shows us two places where the religion changes: 2 Kings when Jeshua finds an "old scroll" and Jesus bringing a new message. Actually when you look deeper there are at least 5 different god views in the bible, I challenge you to find them.

Imagine the god is like Kim Jong il (North Korea), could it be the bible is propaganda? It is more a bend then truth? How would you know the difference? (Go watch some German, or North Korean propaganda, then you know how that feels.) I can safely say, you are a better person than god, since you have certainly killed fewer innocent people. So all that love, that perfectness and goodness, propaganda ... I bet god never has to take a shit either.

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#112

Post by DougN7 »

ozy wrote: post #101
DougN7 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're taking some mighty large liberties defining what our simulation is, and how it started. A simulation can begin with any state, including a hundred years ago with already written books and simulated Big Bang background radiation. There is no difference.

Beings that find themselves in a universe that was created a minute ago but looks old, would be correct when they conclude it looks old. Anything else is unknowable and can not be used to further any theories. Especially when such ideas are grounded in bronze age thinking. "There is no difference." Indeed, if god exists or not, there is no difference ...

Well, there is no difference now. If someone has a big power button, or wants to inject things into the simulation later, or hold a final judgement, that will definitely matter. Not that we can stop it from happening either way. But perhaps we can please the Sim master...?

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#113

Post by ozy »

DougN7 wrote: post #112
ozy wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beings that find themselves in a universe that was created a minute ago but looks old, would be correct when they conclude it looks old. Anything else is unknowable and can not be used to further any theories. Especially when such ideas are grounded in bronze age thinking. "There is no difference." Indeed, if god exists or not, there is no difference ...

Well, there is no difference now. If someone has a big power button, or wants to inject things into the simulation later, or hold a final judgement, that will definitely matter. Not that we can stop it from happening either way. But perhaps we can please the Sim master...?

If we could have knowledge of such things, maybe.

But what if it turns out this is a simulation by some extremist party, who want to see how to stack people against each other using religion? In that case we would owe it to the people there in the real world that we don't ...

Plus you can rest assured that that the sim master himself lives in a simulated universe, somebody else will hold his big button. Buttons all the way down.

From the pit of unknowable things, people can dredge up any coherent story. They might believe it themselves or convince others. Fine when it offers some kind of solace or perspective on life. Not fine when it costs people their freedom or their live.

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#114

Post by milesf »

ozy wrote: post #111
milesf wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I'm 47 now and have had the open challenge since 1990 that if anyone can show me that the Bible is not what it purports to be, then I will have to renounce my faith and search elsewhere. I think that qualifies as an honest attempt :) I'm also not convinced that falsification is the be-all, end-all to deriving meaning. I think it's a very useful tool, but it has its flaws. Looks like we will have to agree to dis…

That is a challenge ;) I am not sure what you think the bible is though. But here are a few things. The bible predicts the earth is set on pillars (Job). But it is not. The bible says man was made in gods image, etc. So it is really surprising we can find fossil records from monkeys to humans, and find lots of Neanderthals and Denisovans. Jesus never heals any mentally handicapped people, as a matter of fact, they se…

Nothing new. Let me up the challenge for you. All of the stuff you've said here and more can be better represented at http://bibviz.com/

There are great answers to your questions above and more, but in my experience those questions are usually not asked in earnest because once I've given an answer more questions are thrown at me.

Let me pick out the last question I asked in earnest before becoming a Christian. There were many before it, but this was the last one I had:

http://bibviz.com/how-did-judas-die-sab.html

This is what's called a paradox. It appears to be a contradiction. A reasonable explanation that resolves the paradox is Judas hung himself and died. The body decomposed, fell on the rocks and his bowels gushed out. This is reasonable because in the following verse it explains why the property is called "The field of Blood".

So what do you think? Is that reasonable? If I fork that website, I would turn the red line indicating a contradiction to blue, meaning that there is a reasonable explanation.

Virtually every argument I've even been thrown I've been able to find an answer, but most people don't even know the questions little alone the answers.

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#115

Post by milesf »

sago wrote: post #110
milesf wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I'm 47 now and have had the open challenge since 1990 that if anyone can show me that the Bible is not what it purports to be, then I will have to renounce my faith and search elsewhere. I think that qualifies as an honest attempt :) I'm also not convinced that falsification is the be-all, end-all to deriving meaning. I think it's a very useful tool, but it has its flaws. Looks like we will have to agree to dis…

:) Question is, what does it purport to be? This is probably not the venue for this, but it is a rabbit hole, that's for sure. if you're really interested in a respectful disagreement, I'll happily share my email. I have the same open door, if anyone can give me a rational basis that supports their truth claims (without opening the door to claims they reject), then I'll change my view. I have, once. I was an evangeli…

Sounds like you're a sane person :) Respectful, honest disagreements I like. Drop me a line at immortal@coderpath.com.

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#116

Post by ozy »

milesf wrote: post #114
ozy wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a challenge ;) I am not sure what you think the bible is though. But here are a few things. The bible predicts the earth is set on pillars (Job). But it is not. The bible says man was made in gods image, etc. So it is really surprising we can find fossil records from monkeys to humans, and find lots of Neanderthals and Denisovans. Jesus never heals any mentally handicapped people, as a matter of fact, they se…

Nothing new. Let me up the challenge for you. All of the stuff you've said here and more can be better represented at http://bibviz.com/ There are great answers to your questions above and more, but in my experience those questions are usually not asked in earnest because once I've given an answer more questions are thrown at me. Let me pick out the last question I asked in earnest before becoming a Christian. There…

I am not so sure if your example is of the same level. My questions were more at how can you "anchor" the bible.

Broadly speaking, I think people can be somewhere on the following line:

1. The bible is the perfect word of the creator

2. The bible is inspired by a god

3. The bible is bronze/iron age people writing down their myths and beliefs.

But let me know how you think, I would guess you are somewhere between 1 or 2, but perhaps you would want to word it differently?

When the bible talks about a soul, heaven, hell, judgement, angels, demons. How can we know that that is reliable? The only parts of the bible we can test for reliability is when it talks about things in our reality. But where it does, it shows a very naive view of reality. How then can we conclude its view of the spiritual world is any better?

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#117

Post by milesf »

ozy wrote: post #116
milesf wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing new. Let me up the challenge for you. All of the stuff you've said here and more can be better represented at http://bibviz.com/ There are great answers to your questions above and more, but in my experience those questions are usually not asked in earnest because once I've given an answer more questions are thrown at me. Let me pick out the last question I asked in earnest before becoming a Christian. There…

I am not so sure if your example is of the same level. My questions were more at how can you "anchor" the bible. Broadly speaking, I think people can be somewhere on the following line: 1. The bible is the perfect word of the creator 2. The bible is inspired by a god 3. The bible is bronze/iron age people writing down their myths and beliefs. But let me know how you think, I would guess you are somewhere between 1 or…

It's is the most published book in human history, with over 6 billion copies. It outsells every book every year (sorry New York Times). The answers are there, in particular have a look at the archaeological & prophetic evidences.

The question "how can we know that the Bible is reliable?" is an excellent question. As for Christianity, the Bible itself explains how to kill it: 1 Corinthians 15:14 "And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."

So all you have to do is explain away the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Many have accepted the challenge and failed. I failed. I couldn't do it.

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#118

Post by ozy »

milesf wrote: post #117
ozy wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not so sure if your example is of the same level. My questions were more at how can you "anchor" the bible. Broadly speaking, I think people can be somewhere on the following line: 1. The bible is the perfect word of the creator 2. The bible is inspired by a god 3. The bible is bronze/iron age people writing down their myths and beliefs. But let me know how you think, I would guess you are somewhere between 1 or…

It's is the most published book in human history, with over 6 billion copies. It outsells every book every year (sorry New York Times). The answers are there, in particular have a look at the archaeological & prophetic evidences. The question "how can we know that the Bible is reliable?" is an excellent question. As for Christianity, the Bible itself explains how to kill it: 1 Corinthians 15:14 "And if Christ has not…

Going back to my line,

> archaeological & prophetic evidences

Nothing that somehow moves away from 3: humans writing down their myths and beliefs. The bible talks about an exodus of 1 million jews from Egypt, zero evidence. The bible prophesied the destruction of Damascus, still here. The drying up of the Nile, didn't happen. The biblical reason for why Nineveh was destroyed is different from the archaeological reason.

The one prophecy (Ezechiel) might be argued is Israel becoming a nation again in 1948. But it requires quite a bit of handwaving. The chance of something happening to Israel that fits some prophecy is high, by the amount and vagueness of those.

> with over 6 billion copies

So by your measure, the quran also has answers, it is number 2 book by far.

> explain away the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Humans writing down myths, a very simple explanation. I would suggest you read how one of the first martyr explains it to the Sanhedrin (Acts 7). But it is not about explanations. It is about knowledge. Many things might be true, but we will never be able to know those things.

No body no crime. But also the positive version, no receipt no reimbursement. Nobody can disproof the resurrection. But nobody can proof it either. Therefor we cannot know.

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#119

Post by milesf »

ozy wrote: post #118
milesf wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's is the most published book in human history, with over 6 billion copies. It outsells every book every year (sorry New York Times). The answers are there, in particular have a look at the archaeological & prophetic evidences. The question "how can we know that the Bible is reliable?" is an excellent question. As for Christianity, the Bible itself explains how to kill it: 1 Corinthians 15:14 "And if Christ has not…

Going back to my line, > archaeological & prophetic evidences Nothing that somehow moves away from 3: humans writing down their myths and beliefs. The bible talks about an exodus of 1 million jews from Egypt, zero evidence. The bible prophesied the destruction of Damascus, still here. The drying up of the Nile, didn't happen. The biblical reason for why Nineveh was destroyed is different from the archaeological reaso…

I don't understand your point about the death of Stephen (which I just happened to be reading in my devotional time this past week) in Acts 7. Could you elaborate?

I respect a person's right to believe whatever they want. All I ask is they respect my right to believe whatever I want. I used to believe the Bible was a collection of myths as well. If you want to believe that, that's certainly your right.

But I don't buy it. Not after reading the entire narrative, which IMHO currently is best done through the Read Scripture app for iPhone/Android (http://readscripture.org/). Not after I made an honest attempt to explain away the resurrection.

So just to be clear, do you think Jesus Christ was a myth, or that His death and resurrection was a myth?

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#120

Post by ozy »

milesf wrote: post #119
ozy wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going back to my line, > archaeological & prophetic evidences Nothing that somehow moves away from 3: humans writing down their myths and beliefs. The bible talks about an exodus of 1 million jews from Egypt, zero evidence. The bible prophesied the destruction of Damascus, still here. The drying up of the Nile, didn't happen. The biblical reason for why Nineveh was destroyed is different from the archaeological reaso…

I don't understand your point about the death of Stephen (which I just happened to be reading in my devotional time this past week) in Acts 7. Could you elaborate? I respect a person's right to believe whatever they want. All I ask is they respect my right to believe whatever I want. I used to believe the Bible was a collection of myths as well. If you want to believe that, that's certainly your right. But I don't bu…

How does Stephen proof that Jesus rose from the dead? And why does that evidence convince (or not) the Sanhedrin? Remember this is not long after it all happened and these are the same men who asked Pilatus for Jesus his execution.

People are free to belief what they want. But people behave according to their beliefs. And sometimes when people think they know the truth, they feel justified in limiting other people their freedoms. More so if they think the creator of the universe agrees, and others are sinners.

So I look for that "liberal" spark in believers. You clearly have it, and that number is growing, but many christians do not. Many others who belief in unknowable and invisible things are even worse. (Non religious people can also lack it.)

As for what I believe:

Was Jesus a real person existed, likely. Did he rise from the dead, no. Was his message misunderstood, yes. Part of Jesus his message was, it is not about what you do, but why you do it. It is about your heart. An eternity in heaven or hell are exactly the wrong motivation.

I think Jesus meant humanity can go much further if we all follow the golden rule, and are less biased towards foreigners and outcasts. More grace more forgiveness, less judgement. When two or more people cooperate in that way, they can do more. That is the holy spirit, not some supernatural force. And that will bring the "kingdom of heaven" here on earth.

It might not feel like it, but we are getting closer to that. How many lepers did god heal? 50 total? Science has healed 5 million.

Only after our thinkers had the "liberal" spark, and were less bound by the dogma of religion, did we finally start to make strides into removing human suffering.

People forget, but in the time of Jesus, over 50% of children died before they were 15. In the rich areas of this world, it is less then 0.2%, in our poorest countries, it is less then 10%.

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