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Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

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Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#231

Post by evmar »

smsowmya wrote: post #4

These things happen at most companies .. people get jealous and have different ways of dealing with it .. it's up to management to handle it well, but since no one talks about it, there is no management for it ..

Are you the author of the article? I'd like to apologize on the behalf of ... pretty much everyone, really, for all the stupid comments here that are focused on doubting your story. It sounds like an awful experience and I imagine all these people missing the point are compounding it.

In my experience in the tech industry, these sorts of victim-blaming people are very vocal but also are a minority, and I am embarrassed that this comment section is full of them.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#232

Post by AlexandrB »

verroq wrote: post #203
whichdan wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For someone trying to define how harassment should be dealt with, you're certainly keen on dismissively calling women "girls".

Women, girls and ladies are used interchangeably to refer to females. Grown women will also refer each other girls. To read such a common usage as misogyny is idiotic.

Context is everything. If your employer called you "boy" you would be upset. If a judge in a court of law called you "boy" you would be upset as well. And rightly so. While if a friend refers to your group of friends as "the boys", that's clearly a term of endearment.

Calling women "girls" while discussing something like the politics of harassment has the effect of subtly diminishing their credibility and personhood.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#233

Post by AlexandrB »

verroq wrote: post #216
wpietri wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello! Guy here. One, those terms are not interchangeable. Words have meanings. Two, people will refer to themselves or people in their in-group by names that people in the outgroup should not call them. E.g., my friend runs a get-together called "nerd beers". I don't mind, because he is a fellow lover of technology. Other people do not get to call me a nerd. Many groups have similar patterns, including black and gay…

When people call females girls they are not infantalising them. Nor do people use this word in this manner. If you have a problem with the word girl in reference to a young woman then your quarrel is with the dictionary.

Well you certainly made your point, boy. Now go fetch my slippers!

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#234

Post by dgacmu »

verroq wrote: post #216
wpietri wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello! Guy here. One, those terms are not interchangeable. Words have meanings. Two, people will refer to themselves or people in their in-group by names that people in the outgroup should not call them. E.g., my friend runs a get-together called "nerd beers". I don't mind, because he is a fellow lover of technology. Other people do not get to call me a nerd. Many groups have similar patterns, including black and gay…

When people call females girls they are not infantalising them. Nor do people use this word in this manner. If you have a problem with the word girl in reference to a young woman then your quarrel is with the dictionary.

The key is "young" woman. From wikipedia, "A girl is a female human from birth through childhood and adolescence to attainment of adulthood when she becomes a woman. "

The discussion is specifically about calling an adult female human a "girl". Emphasis on adult, which in the US is typically regarded as 18.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#235

Post by [deleted] »

PuerkitoBio wrote: post #195
edblarney wrote: post #181

"there was no harassment according to legal definition. " He's extremely lucky. In Canada, and in a growing number of jurisdictions - there is 'harassment' so long as the victim feels as if there was. If a girl feels harassed - then that's it. Guilty. It's a deep breach of our fundamental rights, in that crimes should be determined objectively, and not subject to the whims and feelings of a victim. Obviously, this is…

> In Canada, and in a growing number of jurisdictions - there is 'harassment' so long as the victim feels as if there was. Nonsense, it's still an uphill battle for victims to get their harasser convicted in Canada. See Jian Ghomeshi, Marcel Aubut and the First Nations women v. the police in Val d'Or for recent examples.

[deleted]

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#236

Post by edblarney »

wpietri wrote: post #213
verroq wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women, girls and ladies are used interchangeably to refer to females. Grown women will also refer each other girls. To read such a common usage as misogyny is idiotic.

Hello! Guy here. One, those terms are not interchangeable. Words have meanings. Two, people will refer to themselves or people in their in-group by names that people in the outgroup should not call them. E.g., my friend runs a get-together called "nerd beers". I don't mind, because he is a fellow lover of technology. Other people do not get to call me a nerd. Many groups have similar patterns, including black and gay…

No. Wrong.

'Girl' is the feminine of 'Boy'.

But it is also the feminine of 'Guy'.

Examples:

+ "Hey guys, there's a problem, let's huddle on this" + "Me and the guys are going out for lunch, you in?" + "That guy is loco!"

You would never say:

+ "Hey men, there's a problem, let's huddle"

etc..

And neither:

+ "Hey women, there's an issue, let's huddle" + "Me and the women are going out for lunch"

No.

You would reasonably use 'girls' in every one of the scenarios.

"guys aren't very good at noticing misogyny"

Maybe this is true, but I would also say that a lot of people see misogyny where there is none.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#237

Post by [deleted] »

AlexandrB wrote: post #233
verroq wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people call females girls they are not infantalising them. Nor do people use this word in this manner. If you have a problem with the word girl in reference to a young woman then your quarrel is with the dictionary.

Well you certainly made your point, boy. Now go fetch my slippers!

[deleted]

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#238

Post by gcp »

PlugTunin wrote: post #158
Volt wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: >One day, one of my supervisors jumped to my defense at a team event, in an awkward display of sexism.

I apologize. I read the article, but overlooked that. It's an odd comment for her to make -- and one I'd be curious to know her explanation for.

It sounds like she was rather obviously being white knighted, in a situation where it was clear to her and her coworkers that it was inappropriate. Which then started the problem that her coworkers saw her as favored. (My reading)

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#239

Post by notfitforwrk »

mtrimpe wrote: post #62
smsowmya wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if i had the ability to be this clearheaded, we wouldn't be having this problem at all ..

Having been through an eerily similar episode as what you describe (but then as an LGBT employee) I did have an almost perfect paper trail but it still didn't help. It takes an absolutely insane amount of energy to fight a huge company like this and even if you do everything right the chances are pretty good they'll wear you out first. Best of luck with your recovery! It's been a really tough few years for me and I c…

Thanks for sharing the book. I am an employee of another big tech company currently going through similar process of HR not being very helpful despite raising grievance for last two months. The book is on point. With children and family, the fight is not worth the stress and permanent health impact.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#240

Post by edblarney »

edblarney wrote: post #211
whichdan wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For someone trying to define how harassment should be dealt with, you're certainly keen on dismissively calling women "girls".

I'm not sure I agree. I often call people quite my junior 'boys' and 'girls'. I work with a startup of dudes under 24. I call them 'lads'. I could technically be their father. Is that wrong? No. Neither is using the term Mrs. Ms. or Miss.. In far-left socialist Montreal, where women are not even allowed by law to take their husband's name - people use the French equivalent everywhere: 'Madame' and 'Mademoiselle'. Sam…

"Complaining about identity politics is how white men practice identity politics. "

Are you sure that I'm a guy? Or even white?

Your comment is simply bigoted.

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