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Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

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Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#161
post #151
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not looking for her to "prove beyond all doubt". But, there's several stories in there where a direct quote of what was said to her would be more enlightening than her interpretation as to the motive behind what was said. Or failing a direct quote...how about just the basis of his "defense" of her. Did he call out the high quality of her work (seems fine), or did he say to lay off because she was fragile (seems not f…

I think you are just demanding that she presents the whole story in excruciating detail so you can pick over it. I think it was smart of her not to do that, and I think that we should generally assume that women are capable of figuring out when they're being harassed. I see nothing odd in her leaving out direct quotations. She's telling us about a problem. She's not submitting evidence to a tribunal. However much det…

What if someone posted an accusation about something you said, with scant detail and no direct quote?

"One day, foldr jumped to my defense at a team event, in an awkward display of sexism."

You don't feel like there should have been a quote of what you said? Or lacking that, a little more detail as to why jumping to her defense was sexist? Like, that you defended her by saying the team should lay off because she's female? What if you defended her by calling out her high quality work? Is jumping to someone's defense somehow automatically an awful thing to do?

Edit: For what it's worth, I do believe that she was treated in a sexist way by some people there. I think, however, she may be projecting that onto other people that did not. I might feel differently if there were enough detail.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#162
I'm sure that working in most companies in the Valley and in a heavily-male-skewed environment such as tech, there's STILL a lot of harassment and sexism, both explicit and implicit, and this has to be eradicated. It sickens me that women can't come to the workplace and just be treated like an equal. I've work with many intelligent women who are more intelligent and successful that I ever will be, and they deserve to be in positions of leadership just as much as any male.

However, this is definitely a story that I would like to hear from the other side before taking as absolute gospel. The tone of the blog post leads to a lot of skepticism in me about the veracity of the events.

She accuses her supervisor of sexism for standing up for her, and then basically accuses Apple of sexism for doing nothing. The contradiction is glaring, and she throws around these words pretty thoughtlessly without thinking how it reflects on the believability of her story. Another pet peeve of mine is that she conflates misogyny with sexism. People can be sexist without being misogynists. Many men and women are sexist. It's largely cultural. Very few are misogynists but they are sickening and scary, and need to be eradicated by any means necessary.

> I approached my management when the situation escalated, who directed me to HR.

This here is the part of the article where my skepticism starts to increase. Where is her story about what happened when she contacted her supervisor, or her management chain. Did she not seek help or advice from the supervisor who was ready to help her? There's a lot that was handwaved over that requires explanation. Without understanding what her supervisor did, who defended her previously, I can't understand what happened. The supervisor and direct manager are the ones who are best suited to deal with this problem directly, especially if it's between coworkers.

On a side note, I don't blame the blog post author for thinking that HR would help. I've been in a situation where I had to talk with HR about my direct manager, and they weren't too enthusiastic to help, and I had to fight my own battles essentially. However, I'm a lot better equipped to fight those battles than the blogger because I'm argumentative and stubborn, and most other people, male and female, aren't as motivated.

> My HR representative was simply unfriendly after I gave feedback about her being unduly confrontational with me.

I think this is an interesting comment from the author. It seems like she doesn't have a high EQ, and doesn't know how to interact with people to get the things that she wants or needs. Her HR rep is the most immediate person who would help her navigate this situation, and she apparently pissed her HR rep off. That wasn't smart and speaks a lot to her EQ, and might explain a lot more about the back story here. She could get better help from her HR rep without pissing him or her off, but she didn't do it or didn't know how to do it.

> While I never heard back in person, I do believe that it likely triggered some of the following actions by the company.

This was laughable, and also reflected poorly on the author. The idea that a single complaint about workplace harassment would trigger this is ridiculous, and the fact she is taking credit for any changes at Apple also reflects on her EQ.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#164
post #55
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

human language 101: statement != question

To clarify - your statement is, "this [talking to one's harassers] should always be the first step". It is an extremely broad statement and I am curious how you defend it.

I may not have used enough words, but you should not add yours either. Talking to someone should be the first step, not talking to their managers, parents, superiors, whatever.

If the situation is that bad, call the police, but that is an assault.

An example to back my "statement": https://www.gov.uk/how-to-resolve-neighbour-disputes/overvie... => 1.1.

It's also usually the logical thing adults do.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#165
However, a group of other male coworkers who resented the attention I received started directing inappropriate and misogynistic remarks towards me.

That statement totally reminds me of accounts I've read of conservatives and how they feel about minorities get special treatment.

I just find it really interesting that groups in power react this way while they are still in power. It's a very, very foreign thing to me and I don't understand the source of it, but there is very clearly a common thread of this running through our world right now.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#166
post #60

While not the perfect solution it seems like a lot of the mentioned issues (standardized communication channels, no conflict of interest) could be solved by installing work councils (I take it they are not wide spread in the US? They are standard in Germany): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_council

unions and work councils are fairly rare in the IT/startup sector in Germany. If they exist it's usually because it's the IT department of an old, established enterprise. The rate of union membership in anything that's IT related is comparatively low as well. Personally, I consider that a problem, because it leaves each employee to fight their own fight. But IT folks somehow tend to believe that they don't need any h…

Illegal contract clauses tend to be non-enforceable. So you can sign and then ignore.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#167

> I also eventually received an apology from the company and got time off to deal with my stress. I'm not sure how I feel(as an AAPL shareholder) about this. I invest in the company, and they are spending(albeit a tiny portion in the grand scheme of things) my money to pay you...so you can deal with your stress? Really? I understand bereavement leave, sick leave, and FMLA....but stress? What happened to businesses ex…

> I'm not sure how I feel(as an AAPL shareholder) about [giving her time off]

If I were an AAPL shareholder, I'd be very pleased about it. The behavior indicated in the post very much leaves the company at risk of spending possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars on legal counsel and settlement fees/court-ordered payouts.

Getting away with only an apology and some time off is a bargain.

As for your last paragraph, perhaps there's a distinction between necessary stress and unnecessary stress. You seem to be describing necessary stress -- the stress that's intrinsic to working at a company, facing deadlines, negotiating with clients/other departments, etc.

By contrast, this woman describes a pattern of being on the receiving end of personal attacks based on items unrelated to quality/delivery of work. That would be a very different sort of stress from what you're describing.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's what makes victims think 100 times before making a formal allegation .. and why most don't report it.

What does? The necessity that you should actually show something is occurring before a company destroys someone's reputation and livelihood? Reality is that people lie. Do you genuinely believe that an accusation should be taken as 100% truth simply on one person's word? Do you not see how easily that become a weapon? Even reprimanding a person, when there's no proof they've done anything wrong, establishes a bias ag…

Why can't a formal investigation happen anyways in an anonymous fashion? It takes the concerns seriously and also doesn't automatically assume I'll intent on either side. I don't see the point in dismissing op and assuming someone accused of harassment is the first person that needs protection and support over people who are concerned they are being harassed to the point they make complaints about it...

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#169

> I had never before encountered this kind of visceral hatred This comment rang some bells for me. Have a friend from the Netherlands who was in undergrad with me, and one day in confidence he told me one of the things he didn't understand most in America is how someone can harbor, and actively maintain, such a passionate hatred for someone they aren't intimately involved with. While this hatred is most definitely pr…

I think this is simply just ignorance on your part and the part of your friend. People all around the world are full of hate.

Most countries are still relatively homogenous. Any country where you see some mixing, you'll see the same hate. The Middle East is too easy of an example. Germany, France, etc have a lot of overt hate. The hate in Ireland between the Protestants and the Catholics was very real and they're the same race and culture.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose that would be true if you think arguments are soldiers in favor of women or against them. You think I believe I raised a +1 for men, while you think I raised a +1 for women by mentioning a time they were victims. In fact, I believe arguments are attempts to converge to truth. The fact that women were victims in 1631 has no bearing on this discussion. RoderickDay made an argument that happened to be flawed (…

I think what you were trying to say in your original comment was that "positive" sexism doesn't exist. That the author was being unreasonable when she interpreted her co-worker standing up for her as sexism. I will assert that such "positive" acts can be and often are sexist. Negative actions can also be sexist. It is possible to take a sexist action while you think you're being helpful. Not all sexism is manifested…

I wasn't trying to say this at all. What I was saying is simply that X and !X cannot both be evidence of a hypothesis. If X increases your confidence that Y is true, then !X must reduce your confidence.

If you want to make a more complicated argument as to why these things aren't actually X and !X, do it. But RodericDay wasn't doing that.

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