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Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

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Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#311

Post by tptacek »

wink wrote: post #310
idlewords wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think software engineers were so much hostile as indifferent. And now we're wandering into an area where people want to take a stand against their own management, but are worried about doing it alone for fear of retribution. This is exactly what labor law is designed to help do, and I can assure you people are interested.

I think it also depends hugely on the country. I can only talk about Germany, and in general I'd say unions here have limited to moderate power, depending on the field they operate in. (e.g. you always hear news about strikes from the metal-related union (IG Metall) or the train drivers, or pilots/air personnel.) Now, the thing is that there's also one very broadly defined one for "services" (ver.di) which used to ha…

I think we're all reasonably clear that software developers wouldn't collectively bargain for better salaries. But it's silly to suggest that there aren't issues that would motivate even coddled SFBA developers. For instance:

* Work-for-hire and IP assignment rules and how they relate to side projects

* Non-solicitation clauses and pacts between big companies not to hire

* Transparency about equity valuations in job offers

* Exercise periods for options (in fact: an area of current open conflict between VCs and employees!)

* Overtime, on-call requirements, and death-march schedules

There are probably a dozen more things like this, and that's before we get to the true purpose of organizing, which is to make sure that software talent as a bloc can use market pressure to prevent itself from being subverted by unethical government requests.

This is not a crazy weird idea. There are white collar unions, and there are professional organizations (like the AMA) that do many of the things a union does on behalf of their members, without calling themselves that.

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#312

Post by wink »

tptacek wrote: post #311
wink wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it also depends hugely on the country. I can only talk about Germany, and in general I'd say unions here have limited to moderate power, depending on the field they operate in. (e.g. you always hear news about strikes from the metal-related union (IG Metall) or the train drivers, or pilots/air personnel.) Now, the thing is that there's also one very broadly defined one for "services" (ver.di) which used to ha…

I think we're all reasonably clear that software developers wouldn't collectively bargain for better salaries. But it's silly to suggest that there aren't issues that would motivate even coddled SFBA developers. For instance: * Work-for-hire and IP assignment rules and how they relate to side projects * Non-solicitation clauses and pacts between big companies not to hire * Transparency about equity valuations in job…

No, I absolutely agree. But I do think developers in Germany have it a lot better (from a safety standpoint, work regulations, IP law, etc.pp.) than people in the US - it's just that we get paid less (comparing 60-70k EUR vs 120-140k USD as very rough estimate) and there's no hire & fire. My point is that I think that's why we'd be able to peruse the advantages of a union a lot less. As long as the market is so that we can find a new job near instantly. Maybe I'm also blind to our disadvantages (because I live here, but I think many EU countries are comparable) - but that's why I think the 'typical union advantages' are even less prevalent in the US.

Addendum: I think the job safety thing is bigger, who can predict if this will be a safe job when most of us readers here (assuming age 20-40) are closer to retirement. Then again I'm not sure unions really help against companies not wanting to hire 50+ people for normal (I.e. non-manager) jobs.

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#313

Post by zigzigzag »

tptacek wrote: post #309
zigzigzag wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Labour unions are backed by force of law, and campaigned primarily to get their members more money or benefits, not stop "unethical" behaviour (they invariably claim they're motivated by safety or conditions or whatever, but in practice it almost never is).

You mean besides Polish Solidarity?

Solidarity was by no means a normal trade union comparable to those in the west. It was directly supported by the US Government, not confined to any particular industry, was illegal rather than supported by pro-union laws (as is often the case in the west) and existed in an oppressive dictatorship not a democracy.

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#314

Post by tptacek »

zigzigzag wrote: post #298
tptacek wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then hold them to it when something happens. Personally, I think the people who have publicly signed this, putting them a Google search away from any future employer learning about this, probably thought about it more carefully than you did. In talking to people about this pledge --- particularly people resistant to the pledge (I have conservative friends), the most notable thing I've learned is that people do this a…

It's impossible to "hold them to it" because it's so easy to get out of. People changing jobs because they want better lunch isn't comparable. That's a choice they make on their time, at their leisure and having weighed up many other competing factors. A pledge like this one in theory demands absolutism. Bad behaviour happens, you quit, regardless of how inconvenient or impractical it is for you at that time. In prac…

Two responses.

First: it does not demand absolutism. The point of the pledge is to exert market pressure on companies that are creating negative externalities. The idea is simply to internalize some of the risk they're creating. That market pressure works just fine whether someone quits the moment they discover malfeasance or whether they take the next job offer they get, 2 months later. From the perspective of engineering management, both outcomes are catastrophic.

Second: the pledge doesn't speak for everyone in tech. It speaks for the people who signed the pledge.

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#315

Post by tptacek »

wink wrote: post #312
tptacek wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're all reasonably clear that software developers wouldn't collectively bargain for better salaries. But it's silly to suggest that there aren't issues that would motivate even coddled SFBA developers. For instance: * Work-for-hire and IP assignment rules and how they relate to side projects * Non-solicitation clauses and pacts between big companies not to hire * Transparency about equity valuations in job…

No, I absolutely agree. But I do think developers in Germany have it a lot better (from a safety standpoint, work regulations, IP law, etc.pp.) than people in the US - it's just that we get paid less (comparing 60-70k EUR vs 120-140k USD as very rough estimate) and there's no hire & fire. My point is that I think that's why we'd be able to peruse the advantages of a union a lot less. As long as the market is so that…

The opposite is true. The stronger the employment market, the more market power labor has.

We can easily get new jobs. But we cannot easily find jobs that satisfy all the points I laid out above. Short exercise periods, for instance, are almost universal among tech startups. Companies can get away with doing that because right now, the interest in fixing that is diffuse, and the interest in maintaining the status quo is concentrated.

Straightforward fix: form a professional association, and collectively shun companies that screw over early startup employees with post-vesting clawbacks. We'll see how much longer khaki-clad sweater-bevested VC partners mouth off to the press about disloyal employees when the cost of employing developers for their portfolio companies (and theirs alone) goes up by 40%.

The more I think about unionization, the more I think 2016-2017 is an immense opportunity. A Chicagoan I'm not entirely fond of once memorably said: never let a crisis go to waste.

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#316

Post by tptacek »

zigzigzag wrote: post #313
tptacek wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean besides Polish Solidarity?

Solidarity was by no means a normal trade union comparable to those in the west. It was directly supported by the US Government, not confined to any particular industry, was illegal rather than supported by pro-union laws (as is often the case in the west) and existed in an oppressive dictatorship not a democracy.

Yes: things were much harder for Solidarity, and it not only prevailed but helped break the Iron Curtain.

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#317

Post by [deleted] »

tptacek wrote: post #210
jerf wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have they destroyed any of this data yet? As much fun as it may be to pretend this is a Trump problem, it's a Silicon Valley problem. It's Silicon Valley waking up and realizing that it's all fun and games until someone you don't like gets the data that they have already painstakingly collected, polished, and devoted billions of dollars to processing and extracting features of interest. The existence of people you do…

You find it a bit disgusting that people have pledged to quit their jobs in support of a cause? Are you sure you don't need to recalibrate your definition of "disgusting"?

[deleted]

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#318

Post by nialo »

protomyth wrote: post #244
tptacek wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weak argument. Do better. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13189009

Ok, so they quit. What does that do to Facebook or the US government? Not much. If they really want to change things, then you have to enter politics as a group. Ask a Union where it gets its power. This pledge is not a factor in US politics. There is a reason that the US has to have laws to prevent union busting and those specific circumstances are the same for these type of pledges. The difference is the people ple…

I think this sort of thing is where unions come from.

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#319

Post by idlewords »

zigzigzag wrote: post #299
idlewords wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're complaining that "we need actions" in response to tech employees actually taking action. That's weird. I realize you want to see grander, significant results, but what do you think that looks like at the outset? People starting to do something in an industry that has been historically very wary of being "political".

Signing a pledge is not "action". Actually quitting would be action. But there are lots of signatures from people who work at large companies that make even larger databases. Why didn't they quit already? Why didn't they quit years ago? Why are the only issues the pledge talks about things that liberals care about? Why not also pledge to never make a database of gun owners, to make the conservatives feel included? Th…

It's dishonest to put "gun owner registry" and "Muslim registry" on the same moral footing, or to assert that conservatives don't care about creating a tracking database based on a religious test.

People haven't quit already because there is diversity of opinion about what kind of data collection is inherently bad. There are people from Palantir who signed the pledge. I don't pretend to understand it myself.

However, it represents a public commitment, and comes at a personal risk. People are making a very visible public promise at a time when visible people get harassed, and their own management is trying to make nice with the incoming Administration.

Respect.

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#320

Post by wink »

tptacek wrote: post #315
wink wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I absolutely agree. But I do think developers in Germany have it a lot better (from a safety standpoint, work regulations, IP law, etc.pp.) than people in the US - it's just that we get paid less (comparing 60-70k EUR vs 120-140k USD as very rough estimate) and there's no hire & fire. My point is that I think that's why we'd be able to peruse the advantages of a union a lot less. As long as the market is so that…

The opposite is true. The stronger the employment market, the more market power labor has. We can easily get new jobs. But we cannot easily find jobs that satisfy all the points I laid out above. Short exercise periods, for instance, are almost universal among tech startups. Companies can get away with doing that because right now , the interest in fixing that is diffuse, and the interest in maintaining the status qu…

I'd love to see any numbers on how many "startup employees with stock options" there even are compared to normal salaried employees without any vesting periods.

And then compare that to other countries. Maybe that's my point. I don't see myself disagreeing with anything you wrote, yet you seem to take it that way :)

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