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News Feed FYI: Addressing Hoaxes and Fake News

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Re: News Feed FYI: Addressing Hoaxes and Fake News

#131
post #50
post #34

> We’ve found that a lot of fake news is financially motivated. Spammers make money by masquerading as well-known news organizations, and posting hoaxes that get people to visit to their sites, which are often mostly ads. So we’re doing several things to reduce the financial incentives. On the buying side we’ve eliminated the ability to spoof domains, which will reduce the prevalence of sites that pretend to be real…

I saw people share fake articles from that site on facebook. It is a big problem because non-technical people do not know that abcnews.com.co is a subdomain of com.co, not a subdomain of abcnews.com.

> non-technical people do not know that abcnews.com.co is a subdomain of com.co, not a subdomain of abcnews.com

This is a huge issue. A lot of HN always seems to forget that there are a lot of users out there who are not as gifted with technology as we are. (Case in point, my mother just learned what HTTPS meant last week through an NBC Nightly News segment.)

Unfortunately, it seems to be largely generational in nature.

Re: News Feed FYI: Addressing Hoaxes and Fake News

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not put myself out there as a disinterested arbiter of fact. Facebook isn't going to be appending my critical analysis to alleged fake news stores.

Given this: > I do not put myself out there as a disinterested arbiter of fact. ...all I can say to this: > Facebook isn't going to be appending my critical analysis to alleged fake news stores. ...is quelle surprise . Were you expecting some other outcome?

My argument is very simple but you apparently misunderstand.

morgante guessed that I reject fact checking simply if it doesn't confirm my worldview.

I rebutted that the fact checkers in question aren't simply disproving my worldview. Rather they are advancing an opinion-based counter-narrative under the guise of objectivity.

You replied and suggested that I should be held to the same standard as a purported arbiter of truth.

I rebutted that I do not claim to be a sterile, objective source of bald fact-checking. And a major news consumption platform is not appending my opinions to people's feeds and elevating my opinions to objective status. My opinions-masquerading-as-fact won't be advanced by Facebook as evidence of the disreputability of those I disagree with.

You replied incoherently as far as I can tell.

Re: News Feed FYI: Addressing Hoaxes and Fake News

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given this: > I do not put myself out there as a disinterested arbiter of fact. ...all I can say to this: > Facebook isn't going to be appending my critical analysis to alleged fake news stores. ...is quelle surprise . Were you expecting some other outcome?

My argument is very simple but you apparently misunderstand. morgante guessed that I reject fact checking simply if it doesn't confirm my worldview. I rebutted that the fact checkers in question aren't simply disproving my worldview. Rather they are advancing an opinion-based counter-narrative under the guise of objectivity. You replied and suggested that I should be held to the same standard as a purported arbiter o…

First I will explain the joke in my previous comment, since it seems to have gone over your head. Read what you wrote literally, as if someone else wrote it:

> I do not put myself out there as a disinterested arbiter of fact. > Facebook isn't going to be appending my critical analysis to alleged fake news stores.

The joke I made works--or doesn't--based on whether or not you can see those statements as a self-evident good thing: wouldn't it be good and proper that Facebook isn't going to be appending your critical analysis to alleged fake news `stores` (sic), given that--by your own admission--you aren't putting yourself out there as a disinterested arbiter of fact?

Now to be a bit more serious.

You claim to have an argument...but, where? What is your argument? Where can I find it stated, explicitly, in words?

I can't imagine myself walking away from this conversation saying "you know, despite my initial reaction `halpiamaquark` was actually totally right about...". I mean really, how should I finish that sentence? What's the point you came in here trying to make?

You come across as wanting the world to know you don't like Snopes and Politifact and...that's it?

The play-by-play as I see it starts with this:

> The kosher fact checkers list includes the biased and opinion-based Politifact and Snopes.

That's not an argument; it's a statement of your opinion, but presented as fact.

Now purely talking rhetorical strategies I can't blame you here; after all if you'd lead with this:

> The kosher fact checkers list includes Politifact and Snopes. In my opinion, Politifact and Snopes are biased and opinion-based.

...I think the natural response would be "...and I care because? Is there going to be a point here, eventually?". On the other hand, if you just state your opinion like a fact it's pretty good bait--you'll get people jumping in to play the "I'm going to respond to what I guess you're probably thinking" game.

That's what happened: `morgante` played that game and made a guess, and then, in your own words:

> I rebutted that the fact checkers in question aren't simply disproving my worldview. Rather they are advancing an opinion-based counter-narrative under the guise of objectivity.

I'd characterize this as (a) rejecting his guess at what you think and, then, once again, (b) stating your opinion about Politifact and Snopes as if it were fact.

We're now 3 comments in and there's still no argument: what, again, is the point you're actually trying to make? I mean it's quite clear that you think Snopes and Politifact are biased because you repeat that claim every chance you get, but what's the implication? Can you be direct and make the point you're trying to make, or is there really no point to be had here?

At this point I jump in. It was amusing to me that there was something about presenting opinions as fact that had you so mad--so mad!--while on the other hand you seemed to have no way of expressing yourself other than, well, presenting your opinions as facts.

So I did make a snarky reply but I have to disagree with your characterization of it:

> You replied and suggested that I should be held to the same standard as a purported arbiter of truth.

...no, that's not it at all. Where are you getting this "should be held to the same standard as a purported arbiter of truth"? That's all you and your quarky ways, and presumably all your unstated ideas and assumptions that could perhaps comprise an argument if you were to surface them explicitly.

All I actually did was (a) take your quote:

> Politifact and Snopes push their opinionated worldview as though it is objectively true and morally righteous.

...and prepend an "I think" to it, and then (b) point out that failing to do so would've left you seeming guilty of the same thing you are so mad--so mad!--about Politifact and Snopes (allegedly) doing.

Your follow-up response was where you finally introduce some actual statements of fact:

> I do not put myself out there as a disinterested arbiter of fact. > Facebook isn't going to be appending my critical analysis to alleged fake news stores.

...but despite finally providing something other than simple re-statements of your opinions, as a response this was incoherent.

I mean, yeah, I can guess what you might be thinking, but I'm not going to do your job for you.

If you want to claim to have an argument you have to, you know, actually make it: state your premises, show your steps, show your work, and how they all fit together to make the point you want to make. Otherwise you're just venting!

Re: News Feed FYI: Addressing Hoaxes and Fake News

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My argument is very simple but you apparently misunderstand. morgante guessed that I reject fact checking simply if it doesn't confirm my worldview. I rebutted that the fact checkers in question aren't simply disproving my worldview. Rather they are advancing an opinion-based counter-narrative under the guise of objectivity. You replied and suggested that I should be held to the same standard as a purported arbiter o…

First I will explain the joke in my previous comment, since it seems to have gone over your head. Read what you wrote literally, as if someone else wrote it: > I do not put myself out there as a disinterested arbiter of fact. > Facebook isn't going to be appending my critical analysis to alleged fake news stores. The joke I made works--or doesn't--based on whether or not you can see those statements as a self-evident…

I will restate my original comment more explicitly:

"Because Politifact and Snopes are biased and opinion based, they are not credible to determine whether stories are 'fake'."

I don't think I'm adding content to my original comment here (considering the content of the parent comment), but I admit I could have been more explicit to avoid misunderstanding.

Then my reply to morgante was essentially "no! you!".

Yes, I provided no evidence. I don't care to. What minuscule effect can I hope to have on a tiny handful of strangers on the internet?

I'm happy to just invite reaction and watch my karma as a barometer of HN readers' agreement/disagreement.

Sorry I misused the word "argument". I forgot this was a formal debate.

Re: News Feed FYI: Addressing Hoaxes and Fake News

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First I will explain the joke in my previous comment, since it seems to have gone over your head. Read what you wrote literally, as if someone else wrote it: > I do not put myself out there as a disinterested arbiter of fact. > Facebook isn't going to be appending my critical analysis to alleged fake news stores. The joke I made works--or doesn't--based on whether or not you can see those statements as a self-evident…

I will restate my original comment more explicitly: "Because Politifact and Snopes are biased and opinion based, they are not credible to determine whether stories are 'fake'." I don't think I'm adding content to my original comment here (considering the content of the parent comment), but I admit I could have been more explicit to avoid misunderstanding. Then my reply to morgante was essentially "no! you!". Yes, I p…

> "Because Politifact and Snopes are biased and opinion based, they are not credible to determine whether stories are 'fake'."

Even here you could go more honest and humble--"I think that Politifact and Snopes are biased and opinion-based to the point I can't see them as credible to determine whether stories are fake"--but such a modest approach would indeed be very counterproductive if your real purpose here is to, as you say, invite reactions and watch your karma to take the pulse of the community.

> Yes, I provided no evidence. I don't care to. What minuscule effect can I hope to have on a tiny handful of strangers on the internet?

None, with that attitude! Have a good evening.

Re: News Feed FYI: Addressing Hoaxes and Fake News

#136
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought Politifact was pretty well regarded, and actually tended to be a little too risk-averse in calling out bullshit.

Nope. Politifact will generally use the most generous possible reading of what a Democrat says, or the least generous reading of what a Republican says, when determining truth or falsehood. Take a look at these two stories: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/oct/... http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/sep/... Now, the first story is simply true. Hillary Clinton did attack her…

> Hillary Clinton did attack her husband's mistresses and accusers, and there's a long history of documentation of that.

Source?

Re: News Feed FYI: Addressing Hoaxes and Fake News

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First I will explain the joke in my previous comment, since it seems to have gone over your head. Read what you wrote literally, as if someone else wrote it: > I do not put myself out there as a disinterested arbiter of fact. > Facebook isn't going to be appending my critical analysis to alleged fake news stores. The joke I made works--or doesn't--based on whether or not you can see those statements as a self-evident…

I will restate my original comment more explicitly: "Because Politifact and Snopes are biased and opinion based, they are not credible to determine whether stories are 'fake'." I don't think I'm adding content to my original comment here (considering the content of the parent comment), but I admit I could have been more explicit to avoid misunderstanding. Then my reply to morgante was essentially "no! you!". Yes, I p…

Please stop, both of you. This kind of tedious back-and-forth degrades this site and adds nothing of value.

Re: News Feed FYI: Addressing Hoaxes and Fake News

#139
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politifact is one of the organizations on the approved list [1], and the closest thing I can find on that list to an organization anyone not on the left is likely to regard as politically neutral is the Associated Press. So I'm not really seeing what Facebook expects this to help. [1] http://www.poynter.org/fact-checkers-code-of-principles/

> the closest thing I can find on that list to an organization anyone not on the left is likely to regard as politically neutral The American right's association with reality is well known to be, uhh... tenuous. So it's not too surprising that they tend to disagree with people who verify facts. Edit for downvoters: The mainstream positions of the Republican party are, objectively, factually incorrect on the issues of…

Please keep partisan politics off HN.

Re: News Feed FYI: Addressing Hoaxes and Fake News

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. Politifact will generally use the most generous possible reading of what a Democrat says, or the least generous reading of what a Republican says, when determining truth or falsehood. Take a look at these two stories: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/oct/... http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/sep/... Now, the first story is simply true. Hillary Clinton did attack her…

> Hillary Clinton did attack her husband's mistresses and accusers, and there's a long history of documentation of that. Source?

From http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/10/03/us/politics/hillary-bil...

But privately, she embraced the Clinton campaign’s aggressive strategy of counterattack: Women who claimed to have had sexual encounters with Mr. Clinton would become targets of digging and discrediting — tactics that women’s rights advocates frequently denounce.

The campaign hired a private investigator with a bare-knuckles reputation who embarked on a mission, as he put it in a memo, to impugn Ms. Flowers’s “character and veracity until she is destroyed beyond all recognition.”

In a pattern that would later be repeated with other women, the investigator’s staff scoured Arkansas and beyond, collecting disparaging accounts from ex-boyfriends, employers and others who claimed to know Ms. Flowers, accounts that the campaign then disseminated to the news media.

By the time Mr. Clinton finally admitted to “sexual relations” with Ms. Flowers, years later, Clinton aides had used stories collected by the private investigator to brand her as a “bimbo” and a “pathological liar.”

Mrs. Clinton’s level of involvement in that effort, as described in interviews, internal campaign records and archives, is still the subject of debate. By some accounts, she gave the green light and was a motivating force; by others, her support was no more than tacit assent.

----

The Clintonian strategy of attacking, slandering, and blackmailing his accusers is a matter of historical record. And there are many people in the know who said she was a driving force behind it, while others claim she merely acquiesced to it. You can read Hitchens recount the sordid affair here:

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/1999/05/christopher-hitchens-...

Or read No One Left to Lie to for a more in-depth look.

Now you don't have to believe she was the one driving the bus in the smear campaigns against her husband's accusers, even though plenty of people who were there at the time have said she was. But it does show that Politifact is being especially uncharitable to that claim, when they simply could have said it was disputed.

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