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News Feed FYI: Addressing Hoaxes and Fake News

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Re: News Feed FYI: Addressing Hoaxes and Fake News

#81
post #55

Remember : - It all started with Facebook being accused of manipulating the timeline to remove conservative stories during the campaign - At the time, their PR was along the lines of : we will fire the staff and replace it with an "objective" algorithm - Shortly before the end of the campaign, the Fake News narrative started to be tested under various forms ("conspiracy theories are going mainstream", "damaging rumor…

"It seems like citizens are no longer awake and fighting for the bill of rights" Nothing in the bill of rights applies here. You don't have freedom of speech on Facebook - They make the rules and decide what is allowed and not allowed. It's a company, not the US Government. If enough of their users are upset that fake news like "The Pope endorses Donald Trump" (a real example) is surfacing constantly on their news fe…

I just posted on an another thread that the problem here is that Facebook positionning / PR is to be say that they are a neutral agent.

"Share what you want with your friends / family etc." This is why this case is different. If I use ExxonMobilBook, I kind of know what to expect of Greenpeace related stories.

Given their size, extra-precaution needs to be taken. They either need to rollback, or make their agenda more appearent.

Re: News Feed FYI: Addressing Hoaxes and Fake News

#82
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article could go on and make the case that the actions of the Pope are not aligned with his rethoric which shows that nothing is as black and white as what you suggest.

The example you responded to isn't a "What If" scenario - it actually happened. The headline and body of the article claimed Donald Trump was endorsed by the Pope with no evidence. It's fake news no matter how you look at it.

>The example you responded to isn't a "What If" scenario - it actually happened.

Then you are acually making my case. My point was that it would be hard to call that a fake news, this is an opinion.

Re: News Feed FYI: Addressing Hoaxes and Fake News

#83
The ultimate issue here is that these information providers need to train their users to be gullible, as this is their business and partnership model.

These platforms only function because advertisements and political messaging have to be seen, and are seen, as credible and native to the content being traded by the people using the platform.

Users are trained to uncritically believe the things that show up on their feed, because if they were trained to be skeptical they would the platform would go bankrupt.

Similarly, news media requires readers to have full faith - almost ideological allegiance - in what they are reporting, while at the same time they need an uncritical readership so that they can promote political and consumer advertisements, sponsored and 'earned' content promotion and opinion pieces as though they were fact.

The entire industry functions on the basis of gullible and uncritical readership, media allegiance and sponsored content.

The industry has fallen to extremely low credibility ratings, and a series of nonsense and unpredictive and obvious reporting out of the 'most credible' parts of the industry have left a vacuum whereby readers do not know what to believe, and so accept whatever is most convenient and most readily available.

The solution is to create a credible news media industry, with no sponsored or partner content, no PR, no government propaganda, and where the readers (and skimmers) are the customers who pay for the information. The industry should compete to provide context and reliable information, and readership should be encouraged to be skeptical of the information presented to them at all times.

Maintaining the current mispractice of the poorly functioning industry and adding protectionist measures, gatekeeping and sponsored fact-checkers is not going to solve the problem.

"I'll tell them what to think" is not a solution to "these people are gullible."

Re: News Feed FYI: Addressing Hoaxes and Fake News

#84
post #53
post #6

I wonder if this will be as sketchy as politifact? I hope it won't be, but I reckon it might be. (What I mean is: extremely uncharitable readings of things that they don't like, but overly charitable readings of anything that they like.)

I thought Politifact was pretty well regarded, and actually tended to be a little too risk-averse in calling out bullshit.

Nope. Politifact will generally use the most generous possible reading of what a Democrat says, or the least generous reading of what a Republican says, when determining truth or falsehood.

Take a look at these two stories:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/oct/...

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/sep/...

Now, the first story is simply true. Hillary Clinton did attack her husband's mistresses and accusers, and there's a long history of documentation of that. But Politifact labels it "mostly false" because it was never proven to have come directly from her. As if Sidney Blumenthal just took it upon himself to slander Lewinsky as a delusional nymphomaniac.

In the second link, Clinton claims none of her emails were labelled Top Secret. Note the dodge, here. She didn't say, "I didn't send or receive classified information", she said "those emails didn't contain the correct headers". I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest, given that we know she tried desperately to modify the records of the emails once they were discovered, if those headers were simply stripped either before or after the fact. Either way, she is simply not stupid enough to not know what she was doing. But she claims innocence through stupidity, and politifact labels it "mostly true".

What do both of these examples show? That when Hillary walks the line and is careful not to explicitly say anything demonstrably false, while clearly lying in substance, politifact says she's honest. When Trump says something that's substantively true, while not paying attention to specifics, politifact says he's lying.

This is not intellectually honest fact-checking. Letting one candidate play word games and lie while calling out the other for being less careful but telling the truth is not fact-checking, it's shilling.

Re: News Feed FYI: Addressing Hoaxes and Fake News

#85
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, you have the chronology right but the causation wrong. After conservative pressure to stop editorially reviewing news, fake news has increasingly trended. Since the election, people have realized how untenable this is and so Facebook is looking for a solution. This has nothing to do with the bill of rights. Facebook is not the government, government is not requiring fake news to be censored, and the fac…

>Facebook is this era's nightly news and, just like the nightly news, they have a right to avoid sharing crazy conspiracy theories and outright lies. I have no problem with that. I have a problem with them choosing what I can share with my friends, and more generally what people can share with each other. "Sorry it's fake news so we limited the reach". The problem is that they are not open. My only problem is opacity…

> I have no problem with that. I have a problem with them choosing what I can share with my friends, and more generally what people can share with each other.

They're not policing what you share with your friends, just what you can do on their platform. They are under no obligation to provide infinite reach for whatever drivel you want to share.

If you're sitting in a bar sharing racist anecdotes with your friends, that bar has the right to kick you out if they feel like. It's their bar.

If you don't like what Facebook's policies, go share somewhere else. There's even an alt-right social network you'll fit right in on.

> The problem is that they are not open. My only problem is opacity.

They're completely open about it. They've posted multiple stories about how they're addressing this, will provide links to third-party analysis for any flagged stories, and list the criteria for third-party fact-checking. [0]

> Moreover they coordinate with politics, so this has everything to do with the Bill of Rights at this point.

No, it does not. The Bill of Rights restrains what the government can do, it has nothing to do with what individual corporations can do.

Do you also think Smith & Wesson should be required to provide free guns, since the right to bear arms is in the constitution?

[0] http://www.poynter.org/fact-checkers-code-of-principles/

Re: News Feed FYI: Addressing Hoaxes and Fake News

#86

The ultimate issue here is that these information providers need to train their users to be gullible, as this is their business and partnership model. These platforms only function because advertisements and political messaging have to be seen, and are seen, as credible and native to the content being traded by the people using the platform. Users are trained to uncritically believe the things that show up on their f…

"uncritical readership"

I'm guessing you've never worked for a news organization.

Re: News Feed FYI: Addressing Hoaxes and Fake News

#87
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The example you responded to isn't a "What If" scenario - it actually happened. The headline and body of the article claimed Donald Trump was endorsed by the Pope with no evidence. It's fake news no matter how you look at it.

>The example you responded to isn't a "What If" scenario - it actually happened. Then you are acually making my case. My point was that it would be hard to call that a fake news, this is an opinion.

You are gas lighting.

It is not "opinion" on whether the Pope endorsed Trump. It is unequivocal fact that he did not. Reporting to the contrary is fake news.

Re: News Feed FYI: Addressing Hoaxes and Fake News

#88

The ultimate issue here is that these information providers need to train their users to be gullible, as this is their business and partnership model. These platforms only function because advertisements and political messaging have to be seen, and are seen, as credible and native to the content being traded by the people using the platform. Users are trained to uncritically believe the things that show up on their f…

"uncritical readership" I'm guessing you've never worked for a news organization.

I freelanced.

To be clear by 'uncritical' I mean 'gullible' - as in 'uncritical thinking'.

Re: News Feed FYI: Addressing Hoaxes and Fake News

#89
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought Politifact was pretty well regarded, and actually tended to be a little too risk-averse in calling out bullshit.

Nope. Politifact will generally use the most generous possible reading of what a Democrat says, or the least generous reading of what a Republican says, when determining truth or falsehood. Take a look at these two stories: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/oct/... http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/sep/... Now, the first story is simply true. Hillary Clinton did attack her…

> Hillary Clinton did attack her husband's mistresses and accusers, and there's a long history of documentation of that

> But Politifact labels it "mostly false" because it was never proven to have come directly from her.

These statements are mutually incompatible. There can't be a long history of documentation for something which is proven.

Start your own fact-checker. Your examples just affirm that Politifact is doing it's job correctly.

Re: News Feed FYI: Addressing Hoaxes and Fake News

#90
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that saying "you're wrong" isn't an effective rhetorical technique, but trying to argue with alt-right trolls is a waste of effort. Sites like Snopes and Politifact do the research, with primary sources, to actually validate claims. Since conservatives can't actually invalidate those claims, they've decided to simply claim that any source which disagrees with them is biased. It's gaslighting.

The evidence is often correct. It's the assignment of weight to each claim, lack of charity when reading, and therefore output of the truth-o-meter which is biased. This isn't just rhetoric; it can be evaluated rationally. Worth scrolling through this Twitter feed [0] for individual examples. They can be validated and many are not just 'gaslighting by the right'. And others feel this way, too [1]. [0] https://twitter…

To some extent, I agree that Politifact's ratings are bad because they're inherently subjective. Thankfully Facebook's system will allow you to click through to the original article and read the evidence for yourself.

The latest claim is that even Snopes is politically motivated and lying. The amount of gas lighting which the alt-right is doing is absurd.

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