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Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

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Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#491

Post by bradlys »

morgante wrote: post #388
bradlys wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I live here. I have an average salary for my experience. I can barely save $20k/yr. My rent+util is about $2000/month. I live in a very /cheap/ 1-bedroom with creaky carpet floors, no insulation, and near train tracks that's far outside SF. (Belmont) Altogether I spend close to $4000/month if I don't do anything special. /Everything/ is more expensive in this region. Food is expensive for no apparent reason ot…

You don't have an average salary for your experience. $4,000 * 12 is $48,000. Plus your $20k in purported savings is only $68k. That's only $100k in gross pay, which is the bare minimum for a developer in SV. Most new grads make more than that.

Like I said, $4000 on a regular month. I spend more many months because of trips, stuff breaks, etc.

Most new grads here make $90k-110k from what I've seen. Yes, you can make more. Yes, there are companies that pay stock on top of that. Those people are not me.

I make ~$110k. Minimal benefits. No stock. I happen to work for a big company too. Not every company here pays well and many low ball as hard as they can. (And succeed at low balling)

Before this job, I made $65k. Companies low ball hard and if you can't interview well, you take what you can get.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#492

Post by geoelectric »

chrisper wrote: post #376
jartelt wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree. If people want to gripe about high rent/COL or lack of public transit that is fine and legitimate. But complaining about lack of things to do just doesn't add up. You can go hiking in Marin or in the open space preserves on the peninsula. You can drink great beer at several breweries or go to Napa/Sonoma to wine taste. You can go skiing in Tahoe. You can go to Yosemite or Sequoia. You can ride your b…

But all the places you mentioned are at least 1.5 hours drive from San Jose. You can't expect me to drive 1.5 hours just to not have to sit at home every time I want to have some fun? I love day trips, but I don't want to have to to a day trip every weekend or every day I want to have some fun. Compare that to LA or San Diego where you don't have to drive far to have fun (nightlife for example) or awesome beaches. Al…

We do have hiking trails in the area too, particularly up in the Santa Cruz Mountains, and Henry Coe State Park is a little less than an hour away. There are a number of wineries in Los Gatos and Saratoga, around half an hour away. I'm less familiar with the microbrew scene around here, but I know there's mead in Sunnyvale (~30m) and a handful of larger "micros" like Rock Bottom in Campbell and Lazy Dog in Cupertino. NHL is downtown, NFL is ~30 min away in Santa Clara, etc.

You're overstating the issue. It's not New York or San Francisco, for sure, and we sure do need better rapid transit but you're definitely not an hour and a half from everything cool. You're more like half an hour or so. You just need to look for it.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#493

Post by vram22 »

stbtrax wrote: post #413
rootusrootus wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love Portland. I might make more in SF, but I'm already making more than the median SF salary while living in Portland, and my house only cost me $350K or so. The cost of living is starkly lower here, and the city itself is much, much smaller and less hectic -- while still being big enough to have all the things you want and plenty of people if you want to be social. I can't see moving to SF unless I could earn $30…

I really want to like Portland because it is so cheap and seems to have good access to outdoor activities. Unfortunately I can't get past the weather, and the stark lack of diversity.

The weather is cloudy/rainy/misty many months of the year - is that right? only heard of it briefly from someone.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#494

Post by manyxcxi »

josh_carterPDX wrote: post #143

As someone who grew up in the Bay Area, but moved to Portland about three years ago, I can tell you there is a stark difference in ecosystems. However, if you are a young up-and-coming programmer coming out of school, it makes complete sense to move to the Bay Area. If you're an Actor you move to L.A. to get your big break. If you're a programmer, you go to the Bay Area to work for a big firm that will help build you…

Having grown up in Portland and worked with and for Bay Area companies my whole career, I'd say that I agree with the premise that for younger tech people it could be beneficial to move there- but not because of the money. Because of the size of the community and more diverse opportunities.

I thought PDX was a vibrant (albeit small) tech scene until I moved to Seattle. It was amazing how many more opportunities to meet and learn from interesting people there were across all tech stacks. Having enough friends down in the SF area I get the impression that their scene is even more lively.

As for bigger salaries, I think it's mostly hype. My anecdotal evidence makes me believe that there's likely more opportunities for early stage equity/stock type agreements than you'd find in other places, but my salary has always compared favorably to people in the exact same role living down in the bay- and that's before factoring in the cost of living.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#495

Post by yarou »

Mz wrote: post #480
therealpeal wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what he is saying is that the South Bay is completely without culture, unless you count strip malls and chain restaurants.

I thought the same thing of the first place I lived in my early twenties after moving away from my home town. Then my older sister came to visit and schooled me in how blind I was. Culture is a human artifact and although it exists partly out there in the world we create, a big piece of it lives inside us and informs us of the proper way to interact with both other people and the spaces we share. Sometimes, people wh…

Interesting reply, it seems you've misconstrued the intent of my post.

I was merely sharing my observation that certain areas in the South Bay tend to have more stuff to do (i.e. a downtown). Not sure why you took that as me denigrating parents and families. Perhaps I was being vague.

I agree that culture is something, as you put it, that is kept inside of us. However, people don't exist in a vaccum. We are very much influenced by the environment we live in. Most people don't exist in a cultural vacuum where they don't interact with the larger cultural forces in their environment.

My (admittedly anecdotal) experience has been that the South Bay is primarily a work culture. Having lived both in SF and the South Bay, I can tell you that both are offering very different answers for the same question, regardless of whether or not you are single, married, or have kids.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#496

Post by Mz »

yarou wrote: post #495
Mz wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the same thing of the first place I lived in my early twenties after moving away from my home town. Then my older sister came to visit and schooled me in how blind I was. Culture is a human artifact and although it exists partly out there in the world we create, a big piece of it lives inside us and informs us of the proper way to interact with both other people and the spaces we share. Sometimes, people wh…

Interesting reply, it seems you've misconstrued the intent of my post. I was merely sharing my observation that certain areas in the South Bay tend to have more stuff to do (i.e. a downtown). Not sure why you took that as me denigrating parents and families. Perhaps I was being vague. I agree that culture is something, as you put it, that is kept inside of us. However, people don't exist in a vaccum. We are very much…

Interesting reply, it seems you've misconstrued the intent of my post.

Yeah, no. Please do not assume that a reply of mine to one of three replies to my actual request for clarification is some kind of commentary on you.

I agree that culture is something, as you put it, that is kept inside of us.

That isn't at all what I said. I said it is a human artifact and part of it is stuff out in the world and part of it is a thing inside us, which is very different from saying it is "only" inside us, which is what your framing strongly suggests you read it to mean. In which case, it is you who are misconstruing my comments.

My (admittedly anecdotal) experience has been that the South Bay is primarily a work culture.

Thank you for clarifying.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#497

Post by morgante »

bradlys wrote: post #491
morgante wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have an average salary for your experience. $4,000 * 12 is $48,000. Plus your $20k in purported savings is only $68k. That's only $100k in gross pay, which is the bare minimum for a developer in SV. Most new grads make more than that.

Like I said, $4000 on a regular month. I spend more many months because of trips, stuff breaks, etc. Most new grads here make $90k-110k from what I've seen. Yes, you can make more. Yes, there are companies that pay stock on top of that. Those people are not me. I make ~$110k. Minimal benefits. No stock. I happen to work for a big company too. Not every company here pays well and many low ball as hard as they can. (An…

You claimed that you make an average salary for your experience, now you're admitting to being lowballed. Which is it?

If you're not a new grad and you're only making $110k, then yes you are making under-market. I'm not disputing what you make (that'd be ridiculous), but your assertion that you're making a standard salary.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#498

Post by JimboOmega »

emodendroket wrote: post #391
JimboOmega wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consumers don't have good information; applying for car insurance is a big pain, so they usually don't know. They probably apply once, then have the same car insurance for years... which might mean that they are paying too much. Same basic problem as an employee who has worked at the same company for 10 years, and gotten their 3% raise every year - the market may have changed radically, but looking is a burden (emoti…

Most insurers actually increase premiums over time regardless of whether you make any claims. In the past they offered longtime customer loyalty discounts but as some point some bean counters looked into consumer psychology and noticed exactly what you're talking about so now it's up every year.

All the more reason that they separate from the fair market price!

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#499

Post by madengr »

wyclif wrote: post #323
madengr wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming they can keep it from catching on fire or de-railing. I'm happy to be out of NOVA/MD/DC.

I lived in Vienna, VA for a while, so I'm pretty familiar with all the failings of WMATA. And there are many. But...and it's a big "but", if you've lived in any major non-coastal city in the US you might think that DC's Metrorail is at least a public rail system, which is better than many cities have. It's sad that in the US, you have to take what you can get, and the reasons why the US doesn't have good public trans…

Sure, but when the density gets too high, you require public transportation to get around. I used to live in Falls Church. 20 years ago it only took 20 minutes to drive 5 miles to Tysons Corner (still crazy). Now it takes 45, but you can take the metro.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#500

Post by richie5um »

josh_carterPDX wrote: post #143

As someone who grew up in the Bay Area, but moved to Portland about three years ago, I can tell you there is a stark difference in ecosystems. However, if you are a young up-and-coming programmer coming out of school, it makes complete sense to move to the Bay Area. If you're an Actor you move to L.A. to get your big break. If you're a programmer, you go to the Bay Area to work for a big firm that will help build you…

I moved from the UK, with my wife and two young kids, to the Bay Area in 2012. I'm an experienced dev; mostly hands-on architecture/development, but also leading teams.

Spending time there and experiencing the people and general fast approach to development has definitely help me and my career. It is, mostly, different to the more conservative approach typical used elsewhere. So experiencing the two and being able to use both, when appropriate, is helpful.

After two years we moved back to the UK.

Living and working there was amazing. But, overall it felt like it came at a too huge a cost (financially, work commitment, and commuting).

PS: I do miss being there though. :)

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