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Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

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Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#451

It looks like the salary differential of $33k listed in the article is gross earnings. After taxes this would just barely cover the rent differential of $1.5k/mo ($18k/year). Note that this is the best case scenario according to their estimates. What troubles me is the use of median rent to compare housing costs. As rent increases, renters are likely to downsize offsetting some of the rent increase. I'd be willing to…

Downsizing is a plus, not something to be baked into estimates. If down sizing to having roommates in the Bay Area, then the only fair comparison is the same roommate situation elsewhere.

The idea is to normalize salaries by cost of living. If you have more specific information for each area (you have actual offers), then you can use that. However, using a lower rent for the Bay Area, for example, because you'll have roommate, may set you up to take an equivalently lower salary.

For example, if you're going from $100k/$2000 location to $100k/$3000 (salary / rent), but you set it back to $2000 because that's your rent with roommates, you've foolishly/ignorantly accepted a lower equivalent salary.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#452
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, but only people who want to make big buck should move to the Bay Area. As you concluded later, money is not everything. I am young and about to finish school, but I am moving away from the Bay Area and even move to a different country. I do not care about the high salaries here, as I just do not like the lifestyle here. So, I'd say that the Bay Area is for people who do not mind having to work 24/7…

My experience doesn't line up with your preconceived notions of the Bay Area at all. I've worked at three different jobs in San Francisco, and all of them were standard 9-5 jobs. I've worked weekends under 5 times. Most of my friends are in the same situation. Sure if you want to work at an early stage startup, you can grind yourself into a paste. But there are plenty of jobs here where that's not the case.

> My experience doesn't line up with your preconceived notions of the Bay Area at all

Your phrasing is needlessly incendiary and possibly mistaken, since parent says

>> I am young and about to finish school, but I am moving away from the Bay Area and even move to a different country.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#453
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT I incorrectly multiplied the tax rate to the salary difference, and said that this was a 5$ difference. This is totally wrong (as multiple people point out below). I'll leave my original embarrassing comment as a cation to not write stupid things :) == I just added in a mention of the tax difference. But the numbers are 13.3% in CA vs 0% in WA. That's significant, for sure. But 13% tax on $33k is about $5k. I do…

Thanks for adding the note on the tax difference! That doesn't address my point though. If the salary difference of $33k is the difference between gross salary, that $33k is going to be taxed at the marginal tax rate. My guess at a marginal tax rate would be ~40%. Accordingly, that $33k becomes closer to $20k after tax. Edit: to clarify, consider a Seattle salary of $100k and a Bay Area salary of $133k. The take-home…

There are take-home salary calculators online (know about the variations by state) if you want to get that "into it."

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#454
wow, this article, and the discussion in this forum is doing a great job at substantiating an idea that's been swirling around my head for a long time now.

i personally have made a lifestyle choice not to work for any company that won't allow me to work largely remotely. i often apply to great companies who do interesting stuff and pay well, and then i hear "sorry, we don't do remote". that can be very frustrating. i'm losing a contract right now with a company that decided they were going to switch to a non-remote policy. that too was very frustrating. but the kind of data that's pointed to here really shows that the joke is on them.

think about the cost base of a completely centralized non-remote company: a large share of their employees' salaries goes into their landlords' rather than their own bank accounts. a large share of their time goes to crazy commuting routines rather than actual work.

tell your employees "okay, you make $140000 dollars now, but $30000 goes to your landlord for the privilege of being in the BA. work remotely, move to wherever you want, and we'll pay you $125000". both the company and the employee have $15000 to gain. that's 12%!

tell your employees: "okay, you do 8 hours of work now, and you do 2 hours of commuting each day. why don't you work from home for 9 hours instead." both sides win. the company gains an hour of work, and the employee gains an hour of time to themselves. if we subtract holidays, sick days etc. so that we assume that a year normally has 220 working days, that's 220 hours over a year.

cumulatively that adds up as follows: $140000 over a year for 220 x 8 hours equals an hourly rate of $80. $125000 over a year for 220 x 9 hours equals an hourly rate of $63. That's a 21% cost advantage for the company, and more money left over and a better life for the employee. Over a base of $125000 that 21% advantage is $26250 a year per employee.

i find it really funny how the word "coffee" keeps being brought up by people who deny that there's an economic opportunity here. when i lost my current remote contract, the argument was something like "sorry, our culture is such that so much information exchange is taking place over a coffee, and so many decisions are being taken over a coffee that we can't have you working for us if you can't be a part of that". someone in this discussion thread suggested that it's important to be able to "have coffee" with investors and co-founders. i get the point that we're all meant to be social creatures, and it's nice to be able to have coffee with people. but i'd seriously question the business acumen of people willing to value it to the tune of $26250 per employee per year.

the other thing i find interesting about this article and the discussion thread is that it's another example showing how markets always find a way to get into an equilibrium that rules out the possibility of any such thing as a "free lunch". the article mentions the idea of "building equity." my own first job was in a high-paying finance role, working with lots of other young people who come in with extremely naive ideas around the notion of building equity. "i'll work like crazy for top dollar until i'm 35. if at that point i want to deleverage my lifestyle, i'll always have that option. i'll be able to move to a trailer park and never have to work again in my whole life if it turns out at that point that that's what i want to do. by building equity i'm just expanding my options, never reducing them". the point i'd like to make is: earning more is easy. building equity at a higher rate is hard! the point of departure for your thinking might be "move to the BA because of the higher salaries". but then you start to think things through: "higher rents, higher costs of living, higher taxes, higher risk when you should find yourself out of work for a month, bad situation if you're foreigner, build a life there, then lose your job", and you inevitably conclude. "well there's no such thing as a free lunch in the BA either."

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A single person does NOT need to spend 3600/month in SF. That's crazy. A studio/1 bedroom can be had for 2500. And if you're willing to compromise on location (i.e. "the ghetto") you can get under 2K. Families that need 2+ bedrooms and a good/safe neighbourhood are screwed though.

You don't have to live in San Francisco. There are plenty of nearby cities with cheaper rent.

If you live in a nearby city, shouldn't you factor in transportation prices along with the rent?

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#456
I think it makes sense for programmers or anyone else in this universe to do what they love to do and want to do. If moving to SF is the best way for you to do that, then sure, move there.

But I don't think it is. A place with much lower cost of living might give you much greater freedom to explore your interests and hone your skills, develop your talents, let you wander through your own ideas, implement your own projects, grow as a developer in a way that working for a company would not.

I'm a believer that more interesting things get done when talented people are left on their own to explore. Maybe down the line you get a job in SF after all that exploration is over. But I'm not sure that exploration ever really ends.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#457
post #185

The salaries here do cover the higher cost of living, and if you are able to capitalize on the additional opportunities that are uniquely available here, you could end up doing much more than covering costs. This conclusion is patently false. The article mentioned but failed to calculate California state income tax. That $15k-33k salary differential is going to be eaten by at least $12k in California income taxes. Th…

[deleted]

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#458
Median rent (1 bedroom) in San Francisco, CA: $3,336

Median rent (1 bedroom) in Seattle, WA: $1,924

Senior Software Engineers (total compensation from https://www.paysa.com/salaries )--

Facebook Seattle: $340,750 (340750 / 1924 = 177.10x rent)

Facebook Bay Area: $291,750 (87.46x)

Microsoft Seattle: $327,250 (170.10x)

Microsoft Bay Area: $288,250 (86.41x)

Google Seattle: $307,250 (159.69x)

Google Bay Area: $260,250 (78.01x)

Amazon Seattle: $271,500 (141.11x)

Amazon Bay Area: $234,250 (70.22x)

Given the significant differences in salary, variations in taxes are essentially irrelevant and can be ignored.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you need to be able to have coffee with a VC If you are building a company that needs VC funding. Most companies don't. "Venture Capital is the wrong source of capital for the vast majority of entrepreneurial ventures" http://avc.com/2005/03/dont_take_the_m/ If you aren't looking to raise VC but instead want to be part of a vibrant tech ecosystem, well, that opens up more mid tier cities. For starters: San Diego, L…

I've been far happier as an engineer in NYC and Berlin than SF. Gentrification has made SF a pretty boring place to be, and I felt that my overall sense of creativity plummeted there when I was surrounded by so few people from different backgrounds.

It's kinda funny though, as people in Berlin at least (I'm sure in NYC too) are constantly complaining about gentrification too :)

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of employers look at previous salary to determine a base point for a new job. Coming from somewhere with a high salary makes it much easier to "justify" asking for more.

How would they know your previous salary?

they ask, and some people stupidly answer.
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