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Uber ordered to stop self-driving vehicle service in San Francisco

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Re: Uber ordered to stop self-driving vehicle service in San Francisco

#191
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uber seems like they were extremely reckless YES. I live 10 feet away from the garage. I've noticed over the past few months that they've been ramping in typical startup fashion: hockey stick growth. After reading about Lyft's CEO, a narrative of "nice guys finishing last", I started realizing how unscrupulous Uber is. Sadly, cut-throat businesses win. I recently took an Uber ride, where the driver was an un-retired…

> I recently read an article about the unit economics of Uber. It doesn't work out. Uber, in it's current form is based on leveraging free VC money to subsidize and incentivize somewhat artificial demand. I don't buy that argument. By that logic no taxi service could ever work out. It might not work out at the current price levels, but once they squashed all competitors they're free to raise their prices (similar to…

And that's supposedly a good thing?

Maybe regular taxis aren't that bad after all...

Re: Uber ordered to stop self-driving vehicle service in San Francisco

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardimg [0]: The entire open source industy. Voluntary fire brigades. And so on. I'm surprised you ignore all those so easily.

> Voluntary fire brigades. It's entirely rational to join a VFD out of self interest.

And yet what you do in VFD is very often against your own self interest - you sacrifice a lot of time, and sometimes risk your health and life, and all you get for yourself is bragging rights.

Re: Uber ordered to stop self-driving vehicle service in San Francisco

#193
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny , because they say "self driving" on their own website: https://newsroom.uber.com/san-francisco-your-self-driving-ub...

Sounds like a Tesla PR play: call it Autopilot, except when the context is liability.

The airplane technology that Tesla's Autopilot is named after is also an assistive technology, not a replacement for pilots. The complaint people have around the name is that people don't understand what autopilot is, not that Tesla are equivocating.

Re: Uber ordered to stop self-driving vehicle service in San Francisco

#194
post #142
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is that the levels of these systems will differ. Some systems will be better than humans (on average), and some systems will be worse. The gamble I mention is that Uber and Tesla are putting too many machines on the road at once without having good priors for their current level of competence.

> The gamble I mention is that Uber and Tesla are putting too many machines on the road at once without having good priors for their current level of competence. And from whom do you expect this data will come from? How many is too many? Why? As far as I'm concerned as long as a human can take control at a seconds notice, the risk here is very much overblown. I haven't seen an instance where a company wasn't taking r…

The problematic part for me was Tesla bragging about safety of autopilot before they had enough significant data. Basically saying "We still don't have any fatalities so he'll yeah we must be safer than human!".

The sad part for skeptics like me is that we couldn't really oppose this kindergarten argumentation. We had to wait for the first fatality (wich happened as you must all know).

So now if I base myself on Tesla own logic, I'm only one death away of saying that Tesla autopilot is far worse than average human driver...

And this actually is gambling with human life.

PS: Noteworthy if theses gamblers are wrong this could easily backfire on the whole autonomous driving industry.

Re: Uber ordered to stop self-driving vehicle service in San Francisco

#195
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uber seems like they were extremely reckless YES. I live 10 feet away from the garage. I've noticed over the past few months that they've been ramping in typical startup fashion: hockey stick growth. After reading about Lyft's CEO, a narrative of "nice guys finishing last", I started realizing how unscrupulous Uber is. Sadly, cut-throat businesses win. I recently took an Uber ride, where the driver was an un-retired…

> I recently read an article about the unit economics of Uber. It doesn't work out. Uber, in it's current form is based on leveraging free VC money to subsidize and incentivize somewhat artificial demand. I don't buy that argument. By that logic no taxi service could ever work out. It might not work out at the current price levels, but once they squashed all competitors they're free to raise their prices (similar to…

Can you explain how you arrived at the deduction that NO taxi service could exist?

I agree :

(1) SOME taxi service has to exist. By "work out", we mean profitable, if not non-negative

(2) the unit economics of Uber at the current prices are not profitable / sustainable

(3) The deca-unicorn valuation is based on Uber's revenue as a monopoly.

To ask Sam Altman's question: "If you win, will you stay the winner?"

In the case of Amazon, I can imagine a world where a retailer simultaneously satisfying (1) (profitability) and (3) (monopoly) can continue to exist. Amazon have logistical advantages and the largest catalog of products. It will be hard for a startup to de-thrown hypothetical monopoly Amazon. Hypothetical monopoly Amazon will reap monopoly profits, but demand for retail goods is not suddenly going to disappear.

Hypothetical Uber monopoly will reap monopoly profits per transaction. But will demand for taxi services remain as high as in the current environment of subsidized taxi prices? I'm sometimes able to land a 3-4 mile Uber pool ride in San Francisco for just $3. I have a feeling Uber is not making money here, and these prices are not sustainable, unless of course, someone invents Unicorn fuel * ahem *. This is comparable to public transit prices. If Uber monopoly starts charging unsubsidized and profitable rates, I will reduce my usage by an order of magnitude, if not two. Particularly in situations where public transit is a substitute good. 3 years ago, before moving to San Francisco, I lived just fine without ever using a Taxi. I used public transit to the airport, or got a lift from a friend. Being in San Francisco where subsidized Uber is so cheap, why WOULDN'T I use it? Taxi service is a price sensitive good, and I can live without taxi services 99% of the time.

What characteristics of Uber will allow it to remain a monopoly? Technology? Intellectual Property? Network effects? Lower costs than competitors? Autonomous vehicles? Or something else?

- Network Effects - if I'm using a taxi service, I don't really care if my friends or family use it. Network effects will definitely make me try it out, but ultimately it will be based on price.

- Intellectual Property / Technology - I don't mind making a phone call, rather than using a fancy app, if making a phone call to a cab company saves me money versus a monopoly

- Lower Costs - Will Uber's economy of scale allow them to get gasoline at a significantly lower cost than competitors? Or buy cars and maintenance at discount? Or what other cost advantage will monopoly Uber have?

- Intellectual Property / Technology - Maybe Uber's dispatching system is better than the competitor. What's to stop Google from calling along and integrating a comparable dispatching system?

- Autonomous Vehicles - Are Uber's autonomous vehicles at Level 4 autonomy?

What's to stop a local low-tech taxi cab company from coming along and offering profitable, sustainable, and most importantly (relatively) attractive non-monopoly prices?

Re: Uber ordered to stop self-driving vehicle service in San Francisco

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then we are better off driving for real because `not driving, meaning not being in control, but being ready to take the helm at any time` must be more exhausting (because you have to focus on everything not under your control vs focus on everything that you don't have control minus what you actually control) and increase our reaction time (since some time will pass between the moment you notice you have to take the h…

Being ready to take the helm at any time is required by law, at this point. It applies to Google's test cars, to Tesla Autopilot, etc.

To be clear (late posting, sorry) I believe that even if you have your hands on the wheel when the car is driving by itself it is more exhausting and dangerous than just driving the car yourself.

Re: Uber ordered to stop self-driving vehicle service in San Francisco

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uber seems like they were extremely reckless YES. I live 10 feet away from the garage. I've noticed over the past few months that they've been ramping in typical startup fashion: hockey stick growth. After reading about Lyft's CEO, a narrative of "nice guys finishing last", I started realizing how unscrupulous Uber is. Sadly, cut-throat businesses win. I recently took an Uber ride, where the driver was an un-retired…

Agreed, I think that driving only makes sense as a minimum wage job. The notion that Lyft is significantly better is untrue. Lyft actually created the "ride sharing" portion of both apps (UberX emulated Lyft's model). Lyft didn't get regulatory approval either. Both have been ejected from Austin and other cities. I think the unit economics work out, but perhaps not to the level their current valuation suggests. I thi…

I think the unit economics work out, but perhaps not to the level their current valuation suggests.

Yes. I agree. This is the qualification that was needed as to not make an overstatement.

Re: Uber ordered to stop self-driving vehicle service in San Francisco

#198
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uber seems like they were extremely reckless YES. I live 10 feet away from the garage. I've noticed over the past few months that they've been ramping in typical startup fashion: hockey stick growth. After reading about Lyft's CEO, a narrative of "nice guys finishing last", I started realizing how unscrupulous Uber is. Sadly, cut-throat businesses win. I recently took an Uber ride, where the driver was an un-retired…

> I recently read an article about the unit economics of Uber. It doesn't work out. Uber, in it's current form is based on leveraging free VC money to subsidize and incentivize somewhat artificial demand. I don't buy that argument. By that logic no taxi service could ever work out. It might not work out at the current price levels, but once they squashed all competitors they're free to raise their prices (similar to…

It's not that hard to set up a business like Uber if you only start with one city. You don't need a global business. Taxi businesses also always worked per city. As soon as it'd be lucrative, there will be some competition in the city where it's worth most.

Sure, you can't just copy uber's app. But building a simple app with basic functionality isn't that expensive. And people will mainly decide by price.

Their only chance to ever make back the losses is the self driving business. If it works out they could be very profitable. If it doesn't, I don't believe that they'll ever make back the investments.

Amazon is actually a good example. They also haven't really made back the investments. They're still not very profitable. Maybe they never will be, who knows. As long as enough investors believe in them they can comfortably afford this style.

Re: Uber ordered to stop self-driving vehicle service in San Francisco

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are Google's / Waymo's vehicles not steering-wheel and pedal free? E.g., go to Waymo's own site here[1], scroll to "2015 World’s first fully self-driving ride on public roads", and watch the video: they give, if I'm not mistaken, a blind man a ride in a steering-wheel-free, pedals-free autonomous vehicle on public roads, in Texas. Now, granted, the original article is about the CA DMV, but I've seen vehicles that are…

even though those cars are steering wheel and pedal free, a google employee is riding inside, with a laptop attached, and a big red stop button. Here's an image: http://www.mycoolbin.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Googles-...

What happens after they hit the big red button and the car stops in the middle of the street? Do they wait for a tow truck? Or do they rely on restarting the self-driving mode after the danger has passed?

Re: Uber ordered to stop self-driving vehicle service in San Francisco

#200
post #198
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I recently read an article about the unit economics of Uber. It doesn't work out. Uber, in it's current form is based on leveraging free VC money to subsidize and incentivize somewhat artificial demand. I don't buy that argument. By that logic no taxi service could ever work out. It might not work out at the current price levels, but once they squashed all competitors they're free to raise their prices (similar to…

It's not that hard to set up a business like Uber if you only start with one city. You don't need a global business. Taxi businesses also always worked per city. As soon as it'd be lucrative, there will be some competition in the city where it's worth most. Sure, you can't just copy uber's app. But building a simple app with basic functionality isn't that expensive. And people will mainly decide by price. Their only…

people will mainly decide by price.

They have, they are, and they will.

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