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Yahoo installed a backdoor for the NSA behind the back of the security team

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Re: Yahoo installed a backdoor for the NSA behind the back of the security team

#71

Post by dmix »

normaljoe wrote: post #54
peterkelly wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very good point actually. Though in this case they say the tip-off came from a law enforcement agency (I assume they mean an American one). It's possible however that agency doesn't realise it's a clandestine operation by another US agency. Or they do, but now the operation is complete (this was three years ago) and they want a way of informing yahoo about the breach without admitting who was behind it in th…

It's not US. It's another state actor. Can't say more.

PRISM (Yahoo joined 2nd in 2008 after Microsoft in 2007) would basically defeat the purpose of doing this without permission...

Did Yahoo Mail even use HTTPS? In that case a FISA warrant would just be an extra level of assurance that they got everything from that person's inbox (plus inboxes of 3 hops of everyone they ever emailed). Otherwise they were just an XKeyscore query, probably filtered by US geodata, away from getting whatever email they wanted (plus unlimited hops).

Re: Yahoo installed a backdoor for the NSA behind the back of the security team

#73

Post by koenigdavidmj »

wildmusings wrote: post #52
kabdib wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Options: - Refuse to take action. They want engineering done, they can bloody well do it themselves. Don't type a single keystroke in the direction of helping them. - Announce what is going on anonymously. Plenty of avenues for this. - Announce what is going on, publicly. See if they do indeed want to take you to court. - Quit. - Take down the service. Much easier if the service is only a part of your company. Helps…

If you want to quit to refuse to help, fine, but I take serious issue with what you're suggesting beyond that. These are the legal actions of the United States government, executing the authority given to them to the people's elected representatives, and overseen by a judiciary duly selected according the constitutional procedures. Their legal and democratic authority is unassailable. Further, you don't know what mot…

When your argument can also be used unchanged by the Nazis in the late 30s, it's probably not the best way to go.

Re: Yahoo installed a backdoor for the NSA behind the back of the security team

#74

Post by wildmusings »

koenigdavidmj wrote: post #73
wildmusings wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to quit to refuse to help, fine, but I take serious issue with what you're suggesting beyond that. These are the legal actions of the United States government, executing the authority given to them to the people's elected representatives, and overseen by a judiciary duly selected according the constitutional procedures. Their legal and democratic authority is unassailable. Further, you don't know what mot…

When your argument can also be used unchanged by the Nazis in the late 30s, it's probably not the best way to go.

>When your argument can also be used unchanged by the Nazis in the late 30s, it's probably not the best way to go.

You either missed the entire 'democratic legitimacy' part of my point, or don't actually know anything about the Nazis in the late 30s.

Re: Yahoo installed a backdoor for the NSA behind the back of the security team

#75

Post by [deleted] »

walrus01 wrote: post #22

I seriously think that to get a CS or EE degree (or similar) B.Sci degree, you should be required to take at least one full term length ethics course. Same idea as the ethics courses taught to junior law students. The internet is already fucked up enough with governments and rogue corporations messing with its AS-adjacency topology in non-free ways at OSI layers 1-3 , before you even get into stuff like writing backd…

[deleted]

Re: Yahoo installed a backdoor for the NSA behind the back of the security team

#77

Post by chrismcb »

walrus01 wrote: post #22

I seriously think that to get a CS or EE degree (or similar) B.Sci degree, you should be required to take at least one full term length ethics course. Same idea as the ethics courses taught to junior law students. The internet is already fucked up enough with governments and rogue corporations messing with its AS-adjacency topology in non-free ways at OSI layers 1-3 , before you even get into stuff like writing backd…

How would an ethics course solve this? There are people who think that this is the ethical thing to do. That it is OK for the government to see what the "criminals" are doing. The "I don't have anything to hide crowd."

Re: Yahoo installed a backdoor for the NSA behind the back of the security team

#78

Post by kabdib »

wildmusings wrote: post #52
kabdib wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Options: - Refuse to take action. They want engineering done, they can bloody well do it themselves. Don't type a single keystroke in the direction of helping them. - Announce what is going on anonymously. Plenty of avenues for this. - Announce what is going on, publicly. See if they do indeed want to take you to court. - Quit. - Take down the service. Much easier if the service is only a part of your company. Helps…

If you want to quit to refuse to help, fine, but I take serious issue with what you're suggesting beyond that. These are the legal actions of the United States government, executing the authority given to them to the people's elected representatives, and overseen by a judiciary duly selected according the constitutional procedures. Their legal and democratic authority is unassailable. Further, you don't know what mot…

"How do you know it's not really about a truly bad guy?"

Ans: Tens of thousands of NSLs and other secret actions make it really improbable that a small set of refusals to cooperate will result in great harm. Or that the game the government is playing is really about "bad guys" most of the time.

"No really, this is about an actual bad guy this time!"

The government has lied repeatedly about this stuff. It has covered up the fact that it performs unlawful surveillance on its "sovereign people". If this is about a bad guy this time, rather than all the other times when it has been lies or cover-ups, then that's just too damned bad, isn't it? See also: The Boy Who Cried Wolf.

I have a fundamental disgust with arguments that attempt to appeal to blind loyalty. That "sovereignty of the people" you wrote about has been invoked too many times by scoundrels to be respected.

Sure, there are indeed bad guys who are trying to kill us. But that doesn't justify a wholesale surveillance state, or tens of thousands of NSLs, or secret courts. That's just stuff the powers-that-be want, and have used the bad guys as an excuse to get.

Re: Yahoo installed a backdoor for the NSA behind the back of the security team

#79

Post by masswerk »

ronreiter wrote: post #14

There is no moral dilemma here. If you blow the whistle on the NSA you are a traitor to your own country. How can this not be clear to people.

Provided that the majority of users and customers are non-US citizens, this kind of attitude would render any US-based business a black hat honeypot operation. Same for any US cross-border investments. Think of it. (Also, there's article 12 of the Charter of Human Rights.)

Re: Yahoo installed a backdoor for the NSA behind the back of the security team

#80

Post by kabdib »

wildmusings wrote: post #74
koenigdavidmj wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When your argument can also be used unchanged by the Nazis in the late 30s, it's probably not the best way to go.

> When your argument can also be used unchanged by the Nazis in the late 30s, it's probably not the best way to go. You either missed the entire 'democratic legitimacy' part of my point, or don't actually know anything about the Nazis in the late 30s.

I don't see a whole lot of "democratic legitimacy" in FISA courts or black budgets in the tens to hundreds of billions of dollars.
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